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Sure. Until you're playing Dark Souls for the first time, you get summoned to help someone with a boss, and then get invaded by someone with a 360 degree one-s

Sure. Until you're playing Dark Souls for the first time, you get summoned to help someone with a boss, and then get invaded by someone with a 360 degree one-shot kill spell that breaks all your weapons and armor, gives you an egghead that you can't remove unless you know where to go, and gives you an item that marks you as a cheater so you now get constantly invaded by exclusively cheaters. The item that marks you as a cheater might have been a drop in another invasion, I don't remember. The point remains, once the cheaters realize you have a separate cheaters' matchmaking system, they will weaponize that too.

dkersten 8y ago
> The item that marks you as a cheater might have been a drop in another invasion, I don't remember. I believe they can do it completely passively, so you’re kinda screwed if it happens to you :( This is sadly the nature of trusting what clients send you: a hacked client can send whatever it wants and the “anti cheat” in Dark Souls sadly seems to simply just check if an item should be possible, meaning a cheater can trick the game into punishing non-cheaters. Luckily this hasn’t been a problem for me on console, but it certainly does suck on PC :(
- reificator 8y ago
  And of course, if it didn't punish non-cheaters, then cheaters could simply cheat the items in on one account, invade/summon another of their own accounts, (or passworded summon in the remaster) and then give the new account the items. There's no winning against cheaters as long as you trust the client. (And it's possible to do it on consoles too, just more rare as the tools are readily available on PC.)
  - dkersten 8y ago
    > There's no winning against cheaters as long as you trust the client. Indeed. > And it’s possible to do it on consoles too Sure, but the barrier to entry is higher, so its not done as often. I’ve never noticed someone who was obviously cheating (which doesn’t mean I’ve never encountered any, but if I have, they’ve never been so severe as to do the things mentioned here or for me to notice it)
Buge 8y ago
That seems to be a completely different type of cheat than described in the article. The article is just about cheats that automate certain moves that players would already be able to do, just would be very hard. It's not possible to stop this type of automation in the general case. If a cheater can make items appear out of nowhere, that's not an automation cheat, that's a security vulnerability in the server that should be fixed.
- reificator 8y ago
  My understanding is that the server is not for realtime. Realtime gameplay is peer to peer.
  - Buge 8y ago
    That sounds like a completely different system than League of Legends has. So hellbanning should work fine as suggested (it was suggested for League of Legends). Other games that use (IMHO) broken protocols by trusting the client can't reliably use hellbanning, and I don't think they can reliably do anything.
    - reificator 8y ago
      But the realtime gameplay is where the cheaters are giving other clients items in order to mark innocent players as cheaters. So everyone's getting hellbanned, at which point no one is hellbanned...
      - Buge 8y ago
        I'm saying that a game where the server isn't in the middle is broken, and cannot implement hellbanning. League of Legends has a server in the middle, thus isn't broken, players can't give each other fake items, and hellbanning will work.

dkersten 8y ago

> The item that marks you as a cheater might have been a drop in another invasion, I don't remember. I believe they can do it completely passively, so you’re kinda screwed if it happens to you :( This is sadly the nature of trusting what clients send you: a hacked client can send whatever it wants and the “anti cheat” in Dark Souls sadly seems to simply just check if an item should be possible, meaning a cheater can trick the game into punishing non-cheaters. Luckily this hasn’t been a problem for me on console, but it certainly does suck on PC :(

reificator 8y ago
And of course, if it didn't punish non-cheaters, then cheaters could simply cheat the items in on one account, invade/summon another of their own accounts, (or passworded summon in the remaster) and then give the new account the items. There's no winning against cheaters as long as you trust the client. (And it's possible to do it on consoles too, just more rare as the tools are readily available on PC.)
- dkersten 8y ago
  > There's no winning against cheaters as long as you trust the client. Indeed. > And it’s possible to do it on consoles too Sure, but the barrier to entry is higher, so its not done as often. I’ve never noticed someone who was obviously cheating (which doesn’t mean I’ve never encountered any, but if I have, they’ve never been so severe as to do the things mentioned here or for me to notice it)

Buge 8y ago

That seems to be a completely different type of cheat than described in the article. The article is just about cheats that automate certain moves that players would already be able to do, just would be very hard. It's not possible to stop this type of automation in the general case. If a cheater can make items appear out of nowhere, that's not an automation cheat, that's a security vulnerability in the server that should be fixed.

reificator 8y ago
My understanding is that the server is not for realtime. Realtime gameplay is peer to peer.
- Buge 8y ago
  That sounds like a completely different system than League of Legends has. So hellbanning should work fine as suggested (it was suggested for League of Legends). Other games that use (IMHO) broken protocols by trusting the client can't reliably use hellbanning, and I don't think they can reliably do anything.
  - reificator 8y ago
    But the realtime gameplay is where the cheaters are giving other clients items in order to mark innocent players as cheaters. So everyone's getting hellbanned, at which point no one is hellbanned...
    - Buge 8y ago
      I'm saying that a game where the server isn't in the middle is broken, and cannot implement hellbanning. League of Legends has a server in the middle, thus isn't broken, players can't give each other fake items, and hellbanning will work.