4 ms·

Is it, though? Sirlin's scrub is a strawperson player that will not adapt to any changes in the game, instead asking that the game itself is changed to suit the

by ABCLAW 8y ago

Is it, though? Sirlin's scrub is a strawperson player that will not adapt to any changes in the game, instead asking that the game itself is changed to suit them. Running cheats is the ultimate scrub move - you change your play experience asymmetrically to benefit yourself rather than practicing at the game as offered to get better. There are a ton of interactions in games that are degenerate if performed at TAS level. These aren't areas looking for disruption; they're just impossible to perform with human inputs and they confer game advantages that are not surmountable by non-assisted players. The speed running community segregates TAS content from played content specifically because of this. You will not beat the robot that can perform a 60 input 1 frame trick that gives you a .5 second time save.

invalidOrTaken 8y ago
>Is it, though? Sirlin's scrub is a strawperson player that will not adapt to any changes in the game, instead asking that the game itself is changed to suit them. Running cheats is the ultimate scrub move - you change your play experience asymmetrically to benefit yourself rather than practicing at the game as offered to get better. That's a fair point; I agree. But the ancestors are debating a scenario with sanctioned mechanical aids. vkou classifies them as "cheats" above, but I humbly suggest that he used the term improperly, given the context. Also, remember that we're talking about RTS games, which have an S component as much as they have an RT component. OpenAI can beat Dendi in the early phases of solo mid, but can a team of AIs beat Navi in a full game of DotA? Perhaps they will eventually, but if they do, it will take a whole lot more than just reaction time.
- de_watcher 8y ago
  > but can a team of AIs beat Navi in a full game of DotA? Yes it can, especially Na`Vi (Dota-reddit jokes that AI won't play with Na`Vi because developers want to test AI with a pro team). There were matches with pro players last month. Players say that mechanics in 5v5 fight are perfect and the global strategy is there. I won't say that the strategy has many states in Dota: it's the items and position on the map (by choosing one of the objectives). It's not ready for the real Dota 2 tournaments though: AI was trained for the specific 5 heroes.

by ABCLAW 8y ago

invalidOrTaken 8y ago

>Is it, though? Sirlin's scrub is a strawperson player that will not adapt to any changes in the game, instead asking that the game itself is changed to suit them. Running cheats is the ultimate scrub move - you change your play experience asymmetrically to benefit yourself rather than practicing at the game as offered to get better. That's a fair point; I agree. But the ancestors are debating a scenario with sanctioned mechanical aids. vkou classifies them as "cheats" above, but I humbly suggest that he used the term improperly, given the context. Also, remember that we're talking about RTS games, which have an S component as much as they have an RT component. OpenAI can beat Dendi in the early phases of solo mid, but can a team of AIs beat Navi in a full game of DotA? Perhaps they will eventually, but if they do, it will take a whole lot more than just reaction time.

de_watcher 8y ago
> but can a team of AIs beat Navi in a full game of DotA? Yes it can, especially Na`Vi (Dota-reddit jokes that AI won't play with Na`Vi because developers want to test AI with a pro team). There were matches with pro players last month. Players say that mechanics in 5v5 fight are perfect and the global strategy is there. I won't say that the strategy has many states in Dota: it's the items and position on the map (by choosing one of the objectives). It's not ready for the real Dota 2 tournaments though: AI was trained for the specific 5 heroes.