4 ms·

Regarding the line-cutting/cheating he talks about. I like to distinguish between "culture" and something vaguer, which is what type of equilibrium someone is

Regarding the line-cutting/cheating he talks about. I like to distinguish between "culture" and something vaguer, which is what type of equilibrium someone is trapped in. I started to think this way when I lived in Argentina. Argentina is very corrupt, but just across the river is Uruguay...the least corrupt country in Latin America by some metrics. Argentines and Uruguayos are culturally quite similar (the relationship is analogous to that between the US and Canada), but one country is much less corrupt. I mused about this to my Argentine friend and he said "The difference is that in Argentine politics, if you're not corrupt you'll get destroyed." (This is kind of exaggerated but it gets the point across.) So while the cultures are similar, individuals in each country find themselves in different equilibria: if you're the only corrupt person in a group, you'll get caught and ostracized; if you're the only uncorrupt person, you'll get forced out (the same thing happens to police departments in the US). It is impossible for an individual to change the equilibrium. Likewise with standing in line: Chinese immigrants to America preserve much of their culture for a while but don't cut lines; if they did they would be called out for it, being among the few who do so. But if everyone around you is blatantly cutting, then maybe you'll do it, too.

99_00 8y ago
You should look into Richmond BC or Vancouver Canada. Lots of Chinese and lots of corruption associated with Chinese population, especially tax evasion, money laundering, immigration fraud, illegal business. The only line cutting however is when the fire department is giving away free road salt or there is a sale at the Coach outlet store.
- princetontiger 8y ago
  Very true. China is a pestilence.
- kafkaesque 8y ago
  Not just in BC. There are quite a few Chinese and Taiwanese who are also corrupt in Los Angeles and its suburbs (the San Gabriel Valley). This is not to say there aren't thousands and possibly millions of Chinese people who are good citizens. But I mention it because OP seems a little too confident in his belief, when there are are pretty massive examples of the contrary.
linkmotif 8y ago
> "The difference is that in Argentine politics, if you're not corrupt you'll get destroyed." (This is kind of exaggerated but it gets the point across.) So while the cultures are similar, Wouldn’t you characterize that as a significant cultural difference. Accepting corruption can be viewed as cultural. I would view it this way.
- lewis500 8y ago
  You can define culture many ways obviously, but my point is that you can distinguish behaviors that move with the individual to other places and those that are part of stable equilibria, where one's choice only makes sense in light of others' choices. The latter are like n-player "Stag Hunt" games. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stag_hunt https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stag_hunt As an example, Singapore accepts a lot of Malays and Chinese every year (and most people are Chinese), but the country has "an obsession with queueing" (https://www.todayonline.com/singapore/no-time-wait-line-start-offers-queueing-services-s20-hour https://www.todayonline.com/singapore/no-time-wait-line-star...) and is very orderly w/r/t traffic laws and such.
  - dluan 8y ago
    The n-person subgame Nash equilibria come from simple environmental constraints - the sheer number of people in India or China and the number of available seats in your commuter subway. The cost of not cutting the line is proportional to the number of participants. I'd argue it's a very different experience in say, Newcastle, UK where trains are historically on time, predictable, not as crowded, as opposed to trains in China being unpredictable, late, etc. And, re: culture, well game theory tells us that free-riding is a learned outcome of repeated games. Singapore gets its past learning from a hundred years of British colonialism.
    - linkmotif 8y ago
      This is an interesting perspective. Thank you. > The cost of not cutting the line is proportional to the number of participants. But if people en masse don't cut in line, there's no cost at any scale, right? Imagine a culture where no one cuts in line. Then you don't lose by not cutting in line.
woodandsteel 8y ago
You make some good points, but let me add there are two meanings for the term "culture" The narrow one is things like language and the arts. The broader one, which is what anthropologists study, is the entire workings of the society, which includes the sort of equilibriums you describe.
- Sniffnoy 8y ago
  The thing is I guess that I would normally think of "culture" to mean differences in how people think about things. And you can fall into different equlibria without people having to think of things differently.
ianyang 8y ago
I believe it's much more about tribalism. There's a lack of civic bond between strangers because the idea of nationhood sits above individuals. That's why you see people completely ignoring the existence of others, while being overprotective of their own kins.
- vixen99 8y ago
  On a scale of 1 to 10, what's the definition for 'overprotective' and what level of protectiveness would you recommend we adopt?
princetontiger 8y ago
They don't cut lines because they are too few. You gather a bunch, and it's the same shit. People will see this. A greater East Asian struggle will happen in the next decade. UK, US, France, Japan vs. China. It'll happen because America will be torn to defend some stupid peace treaty signed 80 years ago.
ttflee 8y ago
Remembering my experience in Singapore years ago. I usually went across roads at pedestrian crossing with a few exceptions at Little India, where I followed the crowds and went straight across the roads. People do follow the crowds around.
neolefty 8y ago
I'll go a step further about line-cutting in China: People seemed to actually want a queue. I lived in Chengdu 2011-2016 (and am happy I did) with my wife and three children. Very very often there would be a mob instead of a queue, notably at a weighing station during shopping for fruits & veggies. I noticed that almost always, the force of example crystallized a queue. All I had to do was visibly step behind someone near the front, and people would follow my example. A queue would form, and members of the queue would start enforcing it on new arrivals. In short, people secretly wanted a queue, but they hadn't yet formed one.

99_00 8y ago

You should look into Richmond BC or Vancouver Canada. Lots of Chinese and lots of corruption associated with Chinese population, especially tax evasion, money laundering, immigration fraud, illegal business. The only line cutting however is when the fire department is giving away free road salt or there is a sale at the Coach outlet store.

princetontiger 8y ago
Very true. China is a pestilence.
kafkaesque 8y ago
Not just in BC. There are quite a few Chinese and Taiwanese who are also corrupt in Los Angeles and its suburbs (the San Gabriel Valley). This is not to say there aren't thousands and possibly millions of Chinese people who are good citizens. But I mention it because OP seems a little too confident in his belief, when there are are pretty massive examples of the contrary.

linkmotif 8y ago

> "The difference is that in Argentine politics, if you're not corrupt you'll get destroyed." (This is kind of exaggerated but it gets the point across.) So while the cultures are similar, Wouldn’t you characterize that as a significant cultural difference. Accepting corruption can be viewed as cultural. I would view it this way.

lewis500 8y ago
You can define culture many ways obviously, but my point is that you can distinguish behaviors that move with the individual to other places and those that are part of stable equilibria, where one's choice only makes sense in light of others' choices. The latter are like n-player "Stag Hunt" games. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stag_hunt https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stag_hunt As an example, Singapore accepts a lot of Malays and Chinese every year (and most people are Chinese), but the country has "an obsession with queueing" (https://www.todayonline.com/singapore/no-time-wait-line-start-offers-queueing-services-s20-hour https://www.todayonline.com/singapore/no-time-wait-line-star...) and is very orderly w/r/t traffic laws and such.
- dluan 8y ago
  The n-person subgame Nash equilibria come from simple environmental constraints - the sheer number of people in India or China and the number of available seats in your commuter subway. The cost of not cutting the line is proportional to the number of participants. I'd argue it's a very different experience in say, Newcastle, UK where trains are historically on time, predictable, not as crowded, as opposed to trains in China being unpredictable, late, etc. And, re: culture, well game theory tells us that free-riding is a learned outcome of repeated games. Singapore gets its past learning from a hundred years of British colonialism.
  - linkmotif 8y ago
    This is an interesting perspective. Thank you. > The cost of not cutting the line is proportional to the number of participants. But if people en masse don't cut in line, there's no cost at any scale, right? Imagine a culture where no one cuts in line. Then you don't lose by not cutting in line.

woodandsteel 8y ago

You make some good points, but let me add there are two meanings for the term "culture" The narrow one is things like language and the arts. The broader one, which is what anthropologists study, is the entire workings of the society, which includes the sort of equilibriums you describe.

Sniffnoy 8y ago
The thing is I guess that I would normally think of "culture" to mean differences in how people think about things. And you can fall into different equlibria without people having to think of things differently.

ianyang 8y ago

I believe it's much more about tribalism. There's a lack of civic bond between strangers because the idea of nationhood sits above individuals. That's why you see people completely ignoring the existence of others, while being overprotective of their own kins.

vixen99 8y ago
On a scale of 1 to 10, what's the definition for 'overprotective' and what level of protectiveness would you recommend we adopt?

princetontiger 8y ago

They don't cut lines because they are too few. You gather a bunch, and it's the same shit. People will see this. A greater East Asian struggle will happen in the next decade. UK, US, France, Japan vs. China. It'll happen because America will be torn to defend some stupid peace treaty signed 80 years ago.

ttflee 8y ago

Remembering my experience in Singapore years ago. I usually went across roads at pedestrian crossing with a few exceptions at Little India, where I followed the crowds and went straight across the roads. People do follow the crowds around.

neolefty 8y ago

I'll go a step further about line-cutting in China: People seemed to actually want a queue. I lived in Chengdu 2011-2016 (and am happy I did) with my wife and three children. Very very often there would be a mob instead of a queue, notably at a weighing station during shopping for fruits & veggies. I noticed that almost always, the force of example crystallized a queue. All I had to do was visibly step behind someone near the front, and people would follow my example. A queue would form, and members of the queue would start enforcing it on new arrivals. In short, people secretly wanted a queue, but they hadn't yet formed one.