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My pet conspiracy theory: The vast majority of the CS:GO economy is a massive money laundering operation for the Russian government. You have skins for an AK47

My pet conspiracy theory: The vast majority of the CS:GO economy is a massive money laundering operation for the Russian government. You have skins for an AK47 selling for $40,000. Does anyone seriously think that's legit?

Drakim 8y ago
Do they regularly sell for $40,000 or is that just the top price that's posted?
- ceejayoz 8y ago
  $40k is probably a bit of an outlier, but there's still quite a bit of volume. For example, this gun https://opskins.com/?loc=shop_view_item&item=498470571 https://opskins.com/?loc=shop_view_item&item=498470571 sold 7 times yesterday for $200/pop. That's one item on one site.
- aphextron 8y ago
  https://www.pcgamer.com/csgo-skins-most-expensive/ https://www.pcgamer.com/csgo-skins-most-expensive/ It seems the $40,000 one was an outlier, but still $4000+ is common. Total market volume is in the billions.
  - darawk 8y ago
    Market volume in the low billions is probably not enough for a government to do much serious money laundering. Maybe organized crime, but not a major national government.
    - jbattle 8y ago
      north korea
    - jessaustin 8y ago
      Why would a government need to launder money? Are there no banks in their jurisdiction? Can they not enforce their laws on those banks?
      - ThrustVectoring 8y ago
        You need to get the money into the US banking system in a way that doesn't arouse suspicion.
  - blowski 8y ago
    The market size for computer game skins is worth billions? I find that absolutely incredible. Do you have an article that talks about it?
    - user5994461 8y ago
      That's fairly reasonable when thinking about it. The sales for an AAA game is in the hundreds of millions of dollars. A free to play game should be able to earn the same order of magnitude through its shop, or there wouldn't be so many of them.
      - blevin 8y ago
        Know any good writing that introduces the game item market to outsiders? I am curious about the thought process of people who spend money in this way, and their perception of value. I imagine a taxonomy of motivations, like the one Larry Harris has in _Trading & Exchanges_. Presumably some people get entertainment value (because surely there is a kick in seeing a game's world modified beyond its normal rules of state mutation); some speculate on price trends (hence the price graph on opskins.com; what are time series graphs for if not to spark idle dreams of avarice), and others getting some sort of utility (i.e., money laundering).
        eeeuo 8y ago
        Skinning is probably a slight misnomer. The skins are applied to the player's weapons and can be seen by all other players as well as spectators. They are, in effect, a status symbol. This feeds into the supply and demand component quite heavily, as you can imagine. All secondary effects follow this initial relationship.
        exolymph 8y ago
        Play Money by Julian Dibbell! It's on the dated side now but dives into MMO economies from a practioner's perspective — incredible read.
    - m3rc 8y ago
  - flashman 8y ago
    > Total market volume is in the billions. Trade volume, or market cap? This is an important distinction. You can't multiply the number of items for sale by the market rate for those items. What you're saying is that people are spending billions on CS:GO items and I don't think that's correct; I think what you mean is that buying all the items at their current market prices would require billions.
pjc50 8y ago
You might have something there. There's something very cyberpunk in the idea of corrupting governments through virtual arms sales. Oliver North would be proud.
csomar 8y ago
> Does anyone seriously think that's legit? Yes. Supply/Demand. Price discovery. Visibility. And critical mass. They all can make ridiculous valuations. But back to money laundering: If you consider tax evasion as money laundering too. Then the legit economy is a subset of the money laundering economy. Tax evasion is huge. Very huge. In the Trillions. Then you have drugs, arms, illegal stuff, governments, international corporations, etc... This huge flow of money will certainly pump to everywhere money runs (App Stores, Games with virtual cash, Crypto, Digital Goods, etc...)
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
pwaai 8y ago
ICOs, cryptocurrency to that list.
wruza 8y ago
I’m not sure what parties you suppose to make a deal through that scheme, but for those who don’t know: in Russia no money laundering is required. You simply never get ‘source of funds’ questions even when buying something enormously expensive. Just don’t put it to the bank, unless you want to lose 10% (maximum no-brainer) on converting back. This misconception is also shared among many russian folks who use term ‘laundering’ when actually they speak about tax theft or just theft through fake middleware companies who convert it to cash and that’s it.
- anticodon 8y ago
  This is not true. Even when you buy a simple car, our IRS will require a proof. But it's still easy to cheat them.
- macleginn 8y ago
  As was suggested below, what you mas actually want to do is inject untraceable money into a foreign financial system in order to use it later for some nefarious purpose.
User2347927 8y ago
Buying a $40k CS:GO skin is $10k profit for the Youtuber who earns $50k making a viral "Buying a $40,000 skin in CS:GO" video.
- jakecopp 8y ago
  You'd need a solid number of views to make that money back though! (billions?)
  - delusional 8y ago
    Isn't the youtube CPM like $5? you'd need 10M views for $50k, which seems unrealistic.
    - chrsstrm 8y ago
      That's assuming just YT ad money and doesn't take into account sponsorship deals you can book based on your view count.
      - daemin 8y ago
        Also you can be running your own skins gambling site on the side, promote it using your channel, and not disclose anything. But who would ever do such a nefarious things /sarcasm
    - kthejoker2 8y ago
      Lol no, cpm varies on every video but it's more like pennies on the low end to maybe a dollar for the most viral videos of the moment. Source: am YouTuber, talk to lots of other YouTubers.
    - rak 8y ago
      A lot of youtubers receive direct donations and have monthly subscription offerings through things like Patreon. It might not be that unrealistic as it seems.

Drakim 8y ago

Do they regularly sell for $40,000 or is that just the top price that's posted?

ceejayoz 8y ago
$40k is probably a bit of an outlier, but there's still quite a bit of volume. For example, this gun https://opskins.com/?loc=shop_view_item&item=498470571 https://opskins.com/?loc=shop_view_item&item=498470571 sold 7 times yesterday for $200/pop. That's one item on one site.
aphextron 8y ago
https://www.pcgamer.com/csgo-skins-most-expensive/ https://www.pcgamer.com/csgo-skins-most-expensive/ It seems the $40,000 one was an outlier, but still $4000+ is common. Total market volume is in the billions.
- darawk 8y ago
  Market volume in the low billions is probably not enough for a government to do much serious money laundering. Maybe organized crime, but not a major national government.
  - jbattle 8y ago
    north korea
  - jessaustin 8y ago
    Why would a government need to launder money? Are there no banks in their jurisdiction? Can they not enforce their laws on those banks?
    - ThrustVectoring 8y ago
      You need to get the money into the US banking system in a way that doesn't arouse suspicion.
- blowski 8y ago
  The market size for computer game skins is worth billions? I find that absolutely incredible. Do you have an article that talks about it?
  - user5994461 8y ago
    That's fairly reasonable when thinking about it. The sales for an AAA game is in the hundreds of millions of dollars. A free to play game should be able to earn the same order of magnitude through its shop, or there wouldn't be so many of them.
    - blevin 8y ago
      Know any good writing that introduces the game item market to outsiders? I am curious about the thought process of people who spend money in this way, and their perception of value. I imagine a taxonomy of motivations, like the one Larry Harris has in _Trading & Exchanges_. Presumably some people get entertainment value (because surely there is a kick in seeing a game's world modified beyond its normal rules of state mutation); some speculate on price trends (hence the price graph on opskins.com; what are time series graphs for if not to spark idle dreams of avarice), and others getting some sort of utility (i.e., money laundering).
      - eeeuo 8y ago
        Skinning is probably a slight misnomer. The skins are applied to the player's weapons and can be seen by all other players as well as spectators. They are, in effect, a status symbol. This feeds into the supply and demand component quite heavily, as you can imagine. All secondary effects follow this initial relationship.
      - exolymph 8y ago
        Play Money by Julian Dibbell! It's on the dated side now but dives into MMO economies from a practioner's perspective — incredible read.
  - m3rc 8y ago
- flashman 8y ago
  > Total market volume is in the billions. Trade volume, or market cap? This is an important distinction. You can't multiply the number of items for sale by the market rate for those items. What you're saying is that people are spending billions on CS:GO items and I don't think that's correct; I think what you mean is that buying all the items at their current market prices would require billions.

pjc50 8y ago

You might have something there. There's something very cyberpunk in the idea of corrupting governments through virtual arms sales. Oliver North would be proud.

csomar 8y ago

> Does anyone seriously think that's legit? Yes. Supply/Demand. Price discovery. Visibility. And critical mass. They all can make ridiculous valuations. But back to money laundering: If you consider tax evasion as money laundering too. Then the legit economy is a subset of the money laundering economy. Tax evasion is huge. Very huge. In the Trillions. Then you have drugs, arms, illegal stuff, governments, international corporations, etc... This huge flow of money will certainly pump to everywhere money runs (App Stores, Games with virtual cash, Crypto, Digital Goods, etc...)

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

pwaai 8y ago

ICOs, cryptocurrency to that list.

wruza 8y ago

I’m not sure what parties you suppose to make a deal through that scheme, but for those who don’t know: in Russia no money laundering is required. You simply never get ‘source of funds’ questions even when buying something enormously expensive. Just don’t put it to the bank, unless you want to lose 10% (maximum no-brainer) on converting back. This misconception is also shared among many russian folks who use term ‘laundering’ when actually they speak about tax theft or just theft through fake middleware companies who convert it to cash and that’s it.

anticodon 8y ago
This is not true. Even when you buy a simple car, our IRS will require a proof. But it's still easy to cheat them.
macleginn 8y ago
As was suggested below, what you mas actually want to do is inject untraceable money into a foreign financial system in order to use it later for some nefarious purpose.

User2347927 8y ago

Buying a $40k CS:GO skin is $10k profit for the Youtuber who earns $50k making a viral "Buying a $40,000 skin in CS:GO" video.

jakecopp 8y ago
You'd need a solid number of views to make that money back though! (billions?)
- delusional 8y ago
  Isn't the youtube CPM like $5? you'd need 10M views for $50k, which seems unrealistic.
  - chrsstrm 8y ago
    That's assuming just YT ad money and doesn't take into account sponsorship deals you can book based on your view count.
    - daemin 8y ago
      Also you can be running your own skins gambling site on the side, promote it using your channel, and not disclose anything. But who would ever do such a nefarious things /sarcasm
  - kthejoker2 8y ago
    Lol no, cpm varies on every video but it's more like pennies on the low end to maybe a dollar for the most viral videos of the moment. Source: am YouTuber, talk to lots of other YouTubers.
  - rak 8y ago
    A lot of youtubers receive direct donations and have monthly subscription offerings through things like Patreon. It might not be that unrealistic as it seems.