4 ms·

40-50 years ago, a young person fresh out of high school could get a job that allowed them to live the middle class life -- own a house and support a family wit

by csense 8y ago

40-50 years ago, a young person fresh out of high school could get a job that allowed them to live the middle class life -- own a house and support a family with only one spouse needing to work. Nowadays even college graduates struggle to achieve "liftoff." Globalization has led to a race-to-the-bottom situation where jobs flow across borders, to the places where desperate poverty allows wages to be as low as possible, and the greatest degree of worker exploitation is allowed. Which is great for those people being lifted out of poverty. And it's great for companies who can more freely exploit workers, and maximize their profits. And it's great for consumers, who get lots of cheap new stuff. But it totally wrecked our economy's ability to provide a good standard of living for the ordinary person. Those chickens finally came home to roost in the last US presidential election. There's a lot I don't like about Trump, but I think his tariffs really will make America great again (if they aren't just repealed by the next administration). Because we're finally doing something about this situation.

ashleyn 8y ago
We're doing something, but is it a competent response? Done the wrong way, tariffs just cause everyone to lose. Trump is a symptom of the problem and that's a big part of the reason he happened, but he's not particularly a good solution to it.
israelisreal 8y ago
I agree. I remember those days. At 50, I've been in IT now for 3 decades. The pay in IT has decreased as well. My dad pulled a family of four along on his salary and we were comfortable, but not rich. I lacked nothing. However... when I turned 10, I came home one day from school and there was a brand new mower sitting in the driveway with a gas can and a rope. My dad said, "Son, canvas the neighborhood and charge $5-10 (size) a lawn. That money is yours. Save a dollar for every 10 for gasoline." I was making about $250 a month. This taught me to get off my own butt and make it on my own, which I have. I paid my own way through college (impossible now), bought my own car, married a woman who did the same. We are largely debt free (mortgage), but will be free soon. Except for property tax, we owe no man anything, and this is the way it should be. Pull yourself up by your own bootstraps. Big daddy government is not the answer and technically owes you nothing. As Gerald Ford once said, "A government big enough to give you everything is big enough to take it all away." Sadly, this young generation has embraced the notion of entitlement. No one is owed anything except human dignity. Americans have lost the sense of doing it on their own. Te military is a great choice for kids who cannot afford college. I'm not babying my kids. They will need to make it on their own. My dad did it, I did it, my wife did. None of us were rich, and by today's standards, we would have been considered poor.
- DisposableMike 8y ago
  Entitlement is receiving a brand new mower + fuel, in an area in need of its services and with residents having funds available to pay for its services, and thinking that your "hard work" is the only thing required to have realized its profits. I'm fairly certain that young persons don't feel that anyone "owes them anything" - they only want the same opportunities that those before us had. The facts that those easy gains aren't possible anymore isn't a fault of those with the misfortune of being born 30 years later. Even in your own post, you admit that your platform of success isn't possible for current youth (can't afford college, can't afford a new vehicle, can't afford housing, etc), but yet, you still find a way to blame it on their "entitlement".
- thomasmeeks 8y ago
  How's a kid supposed to make money mowing lawns if their parents cannot afford a mower? How are they supposed to do that if they live in the inner city & there are no lawns? What if their neighbors can't afford the service? I'm not really sure what you are trying to say here. A safety net is entitlement? How so? What's the correct cutoff here, should we end social security and medicare as they exist today? Are you prepared to retire without either right now (kudos if you are)? Should the US summarily shrug at people with disabilities that can't reasonably work? What will become of them? Homeless? Death? Should their families take care of them? What if they can't afford to? What should people do if they can't join the military? You correctly point out that expenses are _much_ higher now. Is my generation entitled because we generally want a fair wage to pay for those expenses? Are we entitled for desiring the return of unions -- unions that did much to create those high wages out of the exploitation of the 1800's & early 1900's. Have you really thought any of this through? Look, I'm part of this generation you're disparaging. I could wax poetic about how I "pulled myself up by my bootstraps" because I'm doing quite well. But I know it is bullshit, because I've also been fortunate enough to choose the right career, at the right time, and had remarkably few setbacks in life. Also I'm a white male in the US. I'm playing life on easy mode and to say otherwise is a lie. That isn't true for everyone, and standing on your soapbox calling on everyone to "pull themselves up by their bootstraps" is both ignorant and dishonest. You've done well in life, but it appears to have bred a stunning lack of empathy.
- 8y ago
jrjarrett 8y ago
But he is going about it completely wrong. Imposing tarriffs on things we need to produce when we cannot meet our own demand, and won't ever again only lets other countries impose tarriffs on things we NEED to sell. Take steel for example: https://www.statista.com/statistics/268683/us-steel-demand-since-2008/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/268683/us-steel-demand-s... In 2017 the US needed 100M metric tons of steel as raw material. We only produced 23M tons. Where is that difference coming from? Purchasing it from other countries. We just don't have the production to make what we need, so why on earth would anyone force the price of that upwards? So now the cost of everything goes UP 25% or more due to tarriffs, and we no longer can sell our exports of soybeans or whatever because they're now 25% more expensive overseas. Explain how that makes "America Great Again."
- acct1771 8y ago
  Because the seller still needs to sell it. And their reduced cost of goods sold compared to USA is low enough to sustain a decrease in margin. How much, I don't know. Devil's advocate: who else will actually buy that steel?
- bluGill 8y ago
  It is the long game. The US is paying more, but we are also looking elsewhere for steel. Thus it hurts China as well. This puts pressure on China to change. It is a long game played by those willing to take short term hurt for a long term wins. I don't agree with this strategy, but it does have some sense in its own way.
noonespecial 8y ago
Hmm. All I see is a sneaky (and regressive) tax raise on America's poorest. You may as well claim raising fees at the DMV will MAGA because think of all the DMV workers who will have pay raises.
dragonwriter 8y ago
> There's a lot I don't like about Trump, but I think his tariffs really will make America great again Tariffs won't do that. Trade negotiation aimed at trade deals with strong common (not necessarily identical but converting over time) labor and environmental protections—where the partners with weaker protection in reach sub-area catch up over time to those starting out with stronger protection—so that competition is on a progrrssively leveling field, rather than a race to the bottom, would help. Tariffs might have utility as leverage in such negotiations, but while this administration may make noises a better trade deals, they haven't shown interest in labor or environmental protections domestically or internationally, so they don't seem likely to use tariffs in the only way in which they might contribute to solving the problem rather than making it worse.
- bluGill 8y ago
  Trump has been talking about intellectual property issues and using the tariffs as leverage in those discussion. That is, exactly what your third paragraph was saying, except that he isn't talking about labor or environmental protections - which you seem to be implying are the only two places where they can work. I don't agree with Trumps' strategy, but I can see what he is trying. We will see if they work long term.
  - dragonwriter 8y ago
    > Trump has been talking about intellectual property issues IP is a capital issue; tightening IP protections reinforces the relative power of capital on all sides of a trade regime. > That is, exactly what your third paragraph was saying, except that he isn't talking about labor or environmental protection Yes, it's exactly what I'm talking about except for being completely different and benefitting a narrow interest rather than a broad one. > which you seem to be implying are the only two places where they can work. No, they can work as leverage on any issue; labor and environmental issues are just the critical ones where they would have broad benefits to the Sheridan public because they would address the problem of the choice between making local conditions worse and losing jobs.
maerF0x0 8y ago
> to the places where desperate poverty allows wages to be as low as possible, and the greatest degree of worker exploitation is allowed. Not that it helps people today, but eventually this trend leads to reductions in poverty and their children demand more. Look at China's middle class. I don't doubt that in 50 yrs they'll be equally as entitled as American and European labor. So I agree this is a hard time, but I think it's the result of non-smooth changes in protectionism and the ability to globalize the workforce.
jcranmer 8y ago
> There's a lot I don't like about Trump, but I think his tariffs really will make America great again (if they aren't just repealed by the next administration). Because we're finally doing something about this situation. The tariffs are at best misguided and most likely highly counterproductive. In the steel sector, the main problem boils down to China massively overbuilding steel production in the past decade and dumping (subsidized) steel on the world market. Building a coalition of nations to confront China on this matter wouldn't be very difficult... but Trump manages to make it about attacking Europe, Canada, and Mexico instead. And the fact of the matter is that there are far more jobs in manufacturing sectors that are at risk because of sudden increases in raw materials brought about by tariffs than there are job prospects to be brought back. On top of that, the resulting trade war is going to cause more pain in the labor market in unrelated segments.

by csense 8y ago

ashleyn 8y ago

We're doing something, but is it a competent response? Done the wrong way, tariffs just cause everyone to lose. Trump is a symptom of the problem and that's a big part of the reason he happened, but he's not particularly a good solution to it.

israelisreal 8y ago

I agree. I remember those days. At 50, I've been in IT now for 3 decades. The pay in IT has decreased as well. My dad pulled a family of four along on his salary and we were comfortable, but not rich. I lacked nothing. However... when I turned 10, I came home one day from school and there was a brand new mower sitting in the driveway with a gas can and a rope. My dad said, "Son, canvas the neighborhood and charge $5-10 (size) a lawn. That money is yours. Save a dollar for every 10 for gasoline." I was making about $250 a month. This taught me to get off my own butt and make it on my own, which I have. I paid my own way through college (impossible now), bought my own car, married a woman who did the same. We are largely debt free (mortgage), but will be free soon. Except for property tax, we owe no man anything, and this is the way it should be. Pull yourself up by your own bootstraps. Big daddy government is not the answer and technically owes you nothing. As Gerald Ford once said, "A government big enough to give you everything is big enough to take it all away." Sadly, this young generation has embraced the notion of entitlement. No one is owed anything except human dignity. Americans have lost the sense of doing it on their own. Te military is a great choice for kids who cannot afford college. I'm not babying my kids. They will need to make it on their own. My dad did it, I did it, my wife did. None of us were rich, and by today's standards, we would have been considered poor.

DisposableMike 8y ago
Entitlement is receiving a brand new mower + fuel, in an area in need of its services and with residents having funds available to pay for its services, and thinking that your "hard work" is the only thing required to have realized its profits. I'm fairly certain that young persons don't feel that anyone "owes them anything" - they only want the same opportunities that those before us had. The facts that those easy gains aren't possible anymore isn't a fault of those with the misfortune of being born 30 years later. Even in your own post, you admit that your platform of success isn't possible for current youth (can't afford college, can't afford a new vehicle, can't afford housing, etc), but yet, you still find a way to blame it on their "entitlement".
thomasmeeks 8y ago
How's a kid supposed to make money mowing lawns if their parents cannot afford a mower? How are they supposed to do that if they live in the inner city & there are no lawns? What if their neighbors can't afford the service? I'm not really sure what you are trying to say here. A safety net is entitlement? How so? What's the correct cutoff here, should we end social security and medicare as they exist today? Are you prepared to retire without either right now (kudos if you are)? Should the US summarily shrug at people with disabilities that can't reasonably work? What will become of them? Homeless? Death? Should their families take care of them? What if they can't afford to? What should people do if they can't join the military? You correctly point out that expenses are _much_ higher now. Is my generation entitled because we generally want a fair wage to pay for those expenses? Are we entitled for desiring the return of unions -- unions that did much to create those high wages out of the exploitation of the 1800's & early 1900's. Have you really thought any of this through? Look, I'm part of this generation you're disparaging. I could wax poetic about how I "pulled myself up by my bootstraps" because I'm doing quite well. But I know it is bullshit, because I've also been fortunate enough to choose the right career, at the right time, and had remarkably few setbacks in life. Also I'm a white male in the US. I'm playing life on easy mode and to say otherwise is a lie. That isn't true for everyone, and standing on your soapbox calling on everyone to "pull themselves up by their bootstraps" is both ignorant and dishonest. You've done well in life, but it appears to have bred a stunning lack of empathy.
8y ago

jrjarrett 8y ago

But he is going about it completely wrong. Imposing tarriffs on things we need to produce when we cannot meet our own demand, and won't ever again only lets other countries impose tarriffs on things we NEED to sell. Take steel for example: https://www.statista.com/statistics/268683/us-steel-demand-since-2008/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/268683/us-steel-demand-s... In 2017 the US needed 100M metric tons of steel as raw material. We only produced 23M tons. Where is that difference coming from? Purchasing it from other countries. We just don't have the production to make what we need, so why on earth would anyone force the price of that upwards? So now the cost of everything goes UP 25% or more due to tarriffs, and we no longer can sell our exports of soybeans or whatever because they're now 25% more expensive overseas. Explain how that makes "America Great Again."

acct1771 8y ago
Because the seller still needs to sell it. And their reduced cost of goods sold compared to USA is low enough to sustain a decrease in margin. How much, I don't know. Devil's advocate: who else will actually buy that steel?
bluGill 8y ago
It is the long game. The US is paying more, but we are also looking elsewhere for steel. Thus it hurts China as well. This puts pressure on China to change. It is a long game played by those willing to take short term hurt for a long term wins. I don't agree with this strategy, but it does have some sense in its own way.

noonespecial 8y ago

Hmm. All I see is a sneaky (and regressive) tax raise on America's poorest. You may as well claim raising fees at the DMV will MAGA because think of all the DMV workers who will have pay raises.

dragonwriter 8y ago

> There's a lot I don't like about Trump, but I think his tariffs really will make America great again Tariffs won't do that. Trade negotiation aimed at trade deals with strong common (not necessarily identical but converting over time) labor and environmental protections—where the partners with weaker protection in reach sub-area catch up over time to those starting out with stronger protection—so that competition is on a progrrssively leveling field, rather than a race to the bottom, would help. Tariffs might have utility as leverage in such negotiations, but while this administration may make noises a better trade deals, they haven't shown interest in labor or environmental protections domestically or internationally, so they don't seem likely to use tariffs in the only way in which they might contribute to solving the problem rather than making it worse.

bluGill 8y ago
Trump has been talking about intellectual property issues and using the tariffs as leverage in those discussion. That is, exactly what your third paragraph was saying, except that he isn't talking about labor or environmental protections - which you seem to be implying are the only two places where they can work. I don't agree with Trumps' strategy, but I can see what he is trying. We will see if they work long term.
- dragonwriter 8y ago
  > Trump has been talking about intellectual property issues IP is a capital issue; tightening IP protections reinforces the relative power of capital on all sides of a trade regime. > That is, exactly what your third paragraph was saying, except that he isn't talking about labor or environmental protection Yes, it's exactly what I'm talking about except for being completely different and benefitting a narrow interest rather than a broad one. > which you seem to be implying are the only two places where they can work. No, they can work as leverage on any issue; labor and environmental issues are just the critical ones where they would have broad benefits to the Sheridan public because they would address the problem of the choice between making local conditions worse and losing jobs.

maerF0x0 8y ago

> to the places where desperate poverty allows wages to be as low as possible, and the greatest degree of worker exploitation is allowed. Not that it helps people today, but eventually this trend leads to reductions in poverty and their children demand more. Look at China's middle class. I don't doubt that in 50 yrs they'll be equally as entitled as American and European labor. So I agree this is a hard time, but I think it's the result of non-smooth changes in protectionism and the ability to globalize the workforce.

jcranmer 8y ago

> There's a lot I don't like about Trump, but I think his tariffs really will make America great again (if they aren't just repealed by the next administration). Because we're finally doing something about this situation. The tariffs are at best misguided and most likely highly counterproductive. In the steel sector, the main problem boils down to China massively overbuilding steel production in the past decade and dumping (subsidized) steel on the world market. Building a coalition of nations to confront China on this matter wouldn't be very difficult... but Trump manages to make it about attacking Europe, Canada, and Mexico instead. And the fact of the matter is that there are far more jobs in manufacturing sectors that are at risk because of sudden increases in raw materials brought about by tariffs than there are job prospects to be brought back. On top of that, the resulting trade war is going to cause more pain in the labor market in unrelated segments.