10 ms·

Many people barely have enough to live on, let alone invest. If wages were higher in real terms, they're lives would be better. Plus, investing is risky. Not ev

by pradn 8y ago

Many people barely have enough to live on, let alone invest. If wages were higher in real terms, they're lives would be better. Plus, investing is risky. Not everyone has the ability to weather business downturns without tapping into savings.

noobermin 8y ago
BTW, this isn't a moral argument (at least it need not be), practically people cannot invest in anything and yield an actually substantial return. Almost half(E) people in the US cannot weather a $400 emergency without going into debt, how could they possibly have enough money to invest for either themselves or their children? This arguably would be only valuable for people in the middle class to upper middle class. EDIT: the statistic is 46%[0]. Okay, it's not "most" people but it's a good fraction. I wouldn't be surprised that >50% can't weather a $1000 emergency. [0] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/05/25/the-shocking-number-of-americans-who-cant-cover-a-400-expense/?utm_term=.4c3fc8e745a5 https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/05/25/the-s...
- joyeuse6701 8y ago
  If one has internet, one can invest in oneself through education in very tangible lucrative ways. Never before has access to so much knowledge been available from MIT courses to marketing books, much of which is free.
  - iamdave 8y ago
    Never before has access to so much knowledge been available from MIT courses to marketing books Sure, but do these mooc/online courseware platforms teach one how to apply these new tangential skills and translate them into CV language and personal development actions that will get them hired? Especially if one is not already mentally inclined to join a 21st century workforce? I'm asking this coming from the perspective of someone born in rural South Carolina (in a portion of the United States known as 'The Bible Belt') who is an entirely self-taught programmer, versed in a couple of languages-and realized I had to go to an entirely different part of the world to even make use of what I had learned. So my mind is going out to those people who don't live in dense urban areas and are maybe looking for a relatively 'future-proof' job that may as well be asking the to learn an alien language. It was only by circumstance alone that I got exposed to the kind of entrepreneurial thinking needed for me to realize early on: I'm not gonna do jack shit with these computer skills, there's no market here, I live in a town that used to be a booming textile center and is now an economically depressed shithole (I say that lovingly, it's my economically depressed shithole), and has been for the last 30 years-forcing me to pack up and leave. Do you think a substantial number of people who have internet have the same circumstances I did to know "I have this skill now, thanks to an online course, and now I need to follow up on it by making this sacrifice to put myself in a position where these new skills will get me hired. I need to be having these discussions with recruiters and hiring mangers, and doing these things to stand out"? Or even have the resources to pack up and plant their butt in a different part of the country? Personally, I don't know if all of these code camps and online training programs do more than say "Here's a wrench, here's how to use it, good luck with your future as a wrench turner". Can anyone speak to career development as an extension of this wealth of online knowledge? I just have hesitations of what utility these programs offer beyond here's how to do x with n.
  - noobermin 8y ago
    People working two or three jobs don't usually have the time to educate themselves. Moreover, the job market is generally against people without a degree. Understand, there are people in this country who have been working since 16 to provide for themselves, they work for less than 9 dollars an hour, and still pay rent, utilities, medical bills, car payments and more. They didn't have hours during summer to sit around and play video games that they could have spent watching MIT courses instead. They today, still don't have the time to game the system and get ahead that others have. The ability to get ahead by shear will is far beyond the will and patience most people who write medium posts about coder burnout have to contend with, the difference is instead of possibly not becoming a more well off person with higher net worth, the possibility is dying or incurring more debt. Regardless, even if single individuals can get ahead, that's fine and commendable in some sense, but there will be many more who won't, the shear majority won't because the system itself produces these circumstances, and in fact, profits off it. What we see is the function of the way we set up companies and society in general.
  - kolpa 8y ago
    That doesn't help people who are getting paid less for doing useful work with the skills they already have.
  - codexon 8y ago
    I've never heard of anyone that would even remotely consider hiring someone who got their knowledge from MIT opencourseware.
- slg 8y ago
  I don't disagree with you, but the obvious counter is that you are mixing causation and correlation. You would have to show that people are not investing because they have no extra money and not that they are choosing to use their money now instead of investing. Realistically it is likely a combination of those two and therefore the comment that started this thread has a point that teaching people about investing can help motivate a shift in priorities which is better than nothing.
  - kadenshep 8y ago
    >You would have to show that people are not investing because they have no extra money and not that they are choosing to use their money now instead of investing. We know they don't have enough money to invest. Average income + average cost of living < amount needed to safely invest. We've quite literally known about if for years on a national scale. He doesn't have to show anything.
    - slg 8y ago
      I am not victim blaming, I am pointing out a way that the "broken system" has failed to educate people about the problem. You also can't just cite the average cost of living as if that it is a standard that has no waste in it. We need to do a better job of framing things like "if you switch to a worse phone plan and save $10 per month to invest, you will probably have something around $30,000 in 30 years while only investing $3,600.".
      - kadenshep 8y ago
        I edited my comment to remove the statement "Stop blaming people for a system they didn't choose." I'm sorry you read it. It was unnecessary and you're right, you're not really victim blaming. I got frustrated at face value because increasing wages would do more to alleviate a lot of American's financial woe's -- now and later -- than (rightfully) helping to educate Americans about investing money. You're right, even small bouts of investment can net large gains in the future. I jumped the gun and took it as "if you just stopped being dumb with money everything would be better!" Wage increases are not only largely (historically) objectively justifiable, but wage increases would be more consistent and easier to "implement" than educating an entire populace in a better manner. There would also be the enormous task of changing purchasing habits. We know that even when people understand "doing X is bad for future results", that doesn't mean they'll make the more rational choice. Neither perspective is exclusive. We can increase wages and we should also invest in educating Americans about sound financial practices. But wage increases can happen now, would be immediately beneficial to everyone, while also making it easier to invest and take on the risks associated with investing.
- nv-vn 8y ago
  To be fair, the reason so many people can't afford a $400 emergency is because most people don't save anything in the bank. And this is not exclusive to working class folks. A lot of people do a terrible job budgeting/saving/investing because they weren't taught to do so. $20 in the bank every month would do plenty to give you a little bit of financial leeway.
arblegobblebrbl 8y ago
Why does this have to be the case? There is so much opportunity in this country.
- pradn 8y ago
  I'm with you on this. It's possible to change the situation.
test6554 8y ago
Even if people don't have money to invest, they can still go into debt. And the time value of money applies to both investments and debt. People need to know how to shop around for debt and to understand the implications of different loan terms. They need to understand the impact that bad credit can have on their future.
- pradn 8y ago
  I'm totally with you that we need to teach people financial literacy in like high school. But there's only so much financial literacy can do for the populace if the labor share of productivity gains are low, if precarity is on the rise, if student loans are so high, if k12 education quality depends on your zipcode/parent's income, if one medical or legal mishap might mean bankruptcy or a lack of access to the job market, if assortative mating means marriage is yet another driver of the great divergence between the upper and lower quintiles of income in this country.

by pradn 8y ago

noobermin 8y ago

BTW, this isn't a moral argument (at least it need not be), practically people cannot invest in anything and yield an actually substantial return. Almost half(E) people in the US cannot weather a $400 emergency without going into debt, how could they possibly have enough money to invest for either themselves or their children? This arguably would be only valuable for people in the middle class to upper middle class. EDIT: the statistic is 46%[0]. Okay, it's not "most" people but it's a good fraction. I wouldn't be surprised that >50% can't weather a $1000 emergency. [0] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/05/25/the-shocking-number-of-americans-who-cant-cover-a-400-expense/?utm_term=.4c3fc8e745a5 https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/05/25/the-s...

joyeuse6701 8y ago
If one has internet, one can invest in oneself through education in very tangible lucrative ways. Never before has access to so much knowledge been available from MIT courses to marketing books, much of which is free.
- iamdave 8y ago
  Never before has access to so much knowledge been available from MIT courses to marketing books Sure, but do these mooc/online courseware platforms teach one how to apply these new tangential skills and translate them into CV language and personal development actions that will get them hired? Especially if one is not already mentally inclined to join a 21st century workforce? I'm asking this coming from the perspective of someone born in rural South Carolina (in a portion of the United States known as 'The Bible Belt') who is an entirely self-taught programmer, versed in a couple of languages-and realized I had to go to an entirely different part of the world to even make use of what I had learned. So my mind is going out to those people who don't live in dense urban areas and are maybe looking for a relatively 'future-proof' job that may as well be asking the to learn an alien language. It was only by circumstance alone that I got exposed to the kind of entrepreneurial thinking needed for me to realize early on: I'm not gonna do jack shit with these computer skills, there's no market here, I live in a town that used to be a booming textile center and is now an economically depressed shithole (I say that lovingly, it's my economically depressed shithole), and has been for the last 30 years-forcing me to pack up and leave. Do you think a substantial number of people who have internet have the same circumstances I did to know "I have this skill now, thanks to an online course, and now I need to follow up on it by making this sacrifice to put myself in a position where these new skills will get me hired. I need to be having these discussions with recruiters and hiring mangers, and doing these things to stand out"? Or even have the resources to pack up and plant their butt in a different part of the country? Personally, I don't know if all of these code camps and online training programs do more than say "Here's a wrench, here's how to use it, good luck with your future as a wrench turner". Can anyone speak to career development as an extension of this wealth of online knowledge? I just have hesitations of what utility these programs offer beyond here's how to do x with n.
- noobermin 8y ago
  People working two or three jobs don't usually have the time to educate themselves. Moreover, the job market is generally against people without a degree. Understand, there are people in this country who have been working since 16 to provide for themselves, they work for less than 9 dollars an hour, and still pay rent, utilities, medical bills, car payments and more. They didn't have hours during summer to sit around and play video games that they could have spent watching MIT courses instead. They today, still don't have the time to game the system and get ahead that others have. The ability to get ahead by shear will is far beyond the will and patience most people who write medium posts about coder burnout have to contend with, the difference is instead of possibly not becoming a more well off person with higher net worth, the possibility is dying or incurring more debt. Regardless, even if single individuals can get ahead, that's fine and commendable in some sense, but there will be many more who won't, the shear majority won't because the system itself produces these circumstances, and in fact, profits off it. What we see is the function of the way we set up companies and society in general.
- kolpa 8y ago
  That doesn't help people who are getting paid less for doing useful work with the skills they already have.
- codexon 8y ago
  I've never heard of anyone that would even remotely consider hiring someone who got their knowledge from MIT opencourseware.
slg 8y ago
I don't disagree with you, but the obvious counter is that you are mixing causation and correlation. You would have to show that people are not investing because they have no extra money and not that they are choosing to use their money now instead of investing. Realistically it is likely a combination of those two and therefore the comment that started this thread has a point that teaching people about investing can help motivate a shift in priorities which is better than nothing.
- kadenshep 8y ago
  >You would have to show that people are not investing because they have no extra money and not that they are choosing to use their money now instead of investing. We know they don't have enough money to invest. Average income + average cost of living < amount needed to safely invest. We've quite literally known about if for years on a national scale. He doesn't have to show anything.
  - slg 8y ago
    I am not victim blaming, I am pointing out a way that the "broken system" has failed to educate people about the problem. You also can't just cite the average cost of living as if that it is a standard that has no waste in it. We need to do a better job of framing things like "if you switch to a worse phone plan and save $10 per month to invest, you will probably have something around $30,000 in 30 years while only investing $3,600.".
    - kadenshep 8y ago
      I edited my comment to remove the statement "Stop blaming people for a system they didn't choose." I'm sorry you read it. It was unnecessary and you're right, you're not really victim blaming. I got frustrated at face value because increasing wages would do more to alleviate a lot of American's financial woe's -- now and later -- than (rightfully) helping to educate Americans about investing money. You're right, even small bouts of investment can net large gains in the future. I jumped the gun and took it as "if you just stopped being dumb with money everything would be better!" Wage increases are not only largely (historically) objectively justifiable, but wage increases would be more consistent and easier to "implement" than educating an entire populace in a better manner. There would also be the enormous task of changing purchasing habits. We know that even when people understand "doing X is bad for future results", that doesn't mean they'll make the more rational choice. Neither perspective is exclusive. We can increase wages and we should also invest in educating Americans about sound financial practices. But wage increases can happen now, would be immediately beneficial to everyone, while also making it easier to invest and take on the risks associated with investing.
nv-vn 8y ago
To be fair, the reason so many people can't afford a $400 emergency is because most people don't save anything in the bank. And this is not exclusive to working class folks. A lot of people do a terrible job budgeting/saving/investing because they weren't taught to do so. $20 in the bank every month would do plenty to give you a little bit of financial leeway.

arblegobblebrbl 8y ago

Why does this have to be the case? There is so much opportunity in this country.

pradn 8y ago
I'm with you on this. It's possible to change the situation.

test6554 8y ago

Even if people don't have money to invest, they can still go into debt. And the time value of money applies to both investments and debt. People need to know how to shop around for debt and to understand the implications of different loan terms. They need to understand the impact that bad credit can have on their future.

pradn 8y ago
I'm totally with you that we need to teach people financial literacy in like high school. But there's only so much financial literacy can do for the populace if the labor share of productivity gains are low, if precarity is on the rise, if student loans are so high, if k12 education quality depends on your zipcode/parent's income, if one medical or legal mishap might mean bankruptcy or a lack of access to the job market, if assortative mating means marriage is yet another driver of the great divergence between the upper and lower quintiles of income in this country.