8 ms·

This is short on details. So here are some more: since S0 ( active suspend) became more popular with windows 10, most manufacturers have decided to REMOVE THE C

by 1996 8y ago

This is short on details. So here are some more: since S0 ( active suspend) became more popular with windows 10, most manufacturers have decided to REMOVE THE CODE from the bios that allows S3 (suspend to ram). Worst case is they left the stubs pretending S3 is supported, so the computer goes to sleep - but never wakes up! Dell, I'm looking at you!! Workarounds come from redoing the S3 code, mostly in ACPI tables with triggers - for all peripherals. It is a shame, as in S3 most laptops eat less that 1% of the battery per hour, while in S0 such good results require heavy configuration to prevent the "active" part of active sleep, and make sure the laptop never wakes up until you actually press on the power button. But I guess it is the road to progress, as S0 is more flexible.

gambiting 8y ago
Is that what is happening with the XPS line? My XPS 13 9333 goes to "sleep" but the backlight and the fan stay on, and the only way to revive it is to do a hard reset. And that's on latest windows 10.
- 1996 8y ago
  Yes. You must either cook and inject your own ACPI table (taking inspiration from a similar model to save you time), or go with S0 only using a kernel patch. I have done some bios and acpi code before on coreboot. It is tough, lots of work and no guaranteed results if you don't have access to the specs (NDA) Anyway I really don't recommend you do that unless you have experience, documentation and time.
xfs 8y ago
I don't think this is even S0 suspend. At least a few year ago thinkpads have already moved to something called IRST, Intel's "suspend to SSD after sleeping for several hours" at firmware level. See https://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/26022.html https://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/26022.html for details. I actually got it working with the latest kernel at that time but didn't feel comfortable using it because of all the horror stories with firmware level shenanigans.
- 1996 8y ago
  this is something else. IRST was Intel custom implementation, back when S0 did not exist. It required a custom partition. IIRC, suspend to disk when battery runs out is now one of the standard S0 features. At the OS level (windows 10) there is a telemetry to check the depletion rate, and initiate suspend to disk when the rate is too high or battery is too low. Check the logs made by microsoft powercfg, they are very informative and will help you reach power savings close to what S3 allowed. But I need that to work in Linux too, and last time I checked it wasn't as good.
  - beagle3 8y ago
    > At the OS level (windows 10) there is a telemetry Nitpick: "Telemetry" means "measurement far away". Does this get sent to microsoft ("tele") or is it just a measurement ("metric")?
makomk 8y ago
It sounds like this isn't just some arbitrary decision, but Windows actually requires S3 to be removed in order to use the new suspend mode. From the thread: "When ACPI table was changed to support S3, Windows Modern Standby doesn't work. Modern Standby and Suspend/Resume functions are working exclusively."
- 1996 8y ago
  Because someone was too lazy to bother with a if/else, because first implementations of S0 were so bad.
- nixpulvis 8y ago
  Make it a BOIS setting then.
  - 1996 8y ago
    No need: the bios can present different acpi tables depending on the OS who is asking for them. all it takes is a switch (case when..statement. So there was no reason whatsoever to remove the code.
    - makomk 8y ago
      Because so many BIOSes provide completely broken ACPI tables to non-Windows OSes, I think Linux reports itself as being Windows to the ACPI code these days. So no, it probably can't.
nextos 8y ago
It's worrying how obscure and poor standards compliance modern hardware is starting to display. And we're talking about PCs. Let's not even discuss mobiles. In 2012 I bought a MacBook Air to run Linux. It's a great silent machine with all Intel hardware, except the pretty poor quality Broadcom wireless card. It boots with any vanilla kernel, and everything just works. Except for poor wireless range. What machine can I buy these days that? i) Just works on Linux (which in practice means everything has to be Intel, including the wireless card) ii) Is reasonably silent The only machine I've found worth considering is a Xiaomi Air 12 with a m3 (fanless) CPU. Some Thinkpads are OK, but they tend to be on the noisy side of things due to excessively small fans and too much power I don't need. This, despite aggressively tweaking powertop settings. I'm also looking for external USB high-gain wireless antennas. But even classic Alfa ones with Atheros 9271 chipsets are a hit and miss. It's a bit hopeless. If someone has good suggestions, I'd be glad to consider them.
- wahern 8y ago
  > It's worrying how obscure and poor standards compliance modern hardware is starting to display. The standards are too complex. I've spent thousands of dollars on ISO standards documents over the past several years.[1] The complexity of these documents is absurd. And I've never seen an implementation that came close to adhering to the entirety of the standard--everybody always takes shortcuts because it's not cost-effective otherwise. The problem is, everybody takes different shortcuts, so you end up with endless interoperability problems. The exceptions are often when everybody sources hardware or software implementations from a single vendor. That's when things go more smoothly because everybody is using the same half-baked driver or firmware. [1] The last document I purchased was 138CHF (coincidentally $138USD at today's exchange rate). They've always been at least that much in recent memory, and often standards are broken up into separate documents or incorporated by reference so you're paying 4x or 5x to get the entire standard. There's alot of free documentation online that open source developers often use, but personally I find it difficult to wrap my head around these things unless I have an idea of the overall design. (I want to see the overall picture so my initial API and architecture isn't a pile of technical debt from day 1.) I have the means so I bite the bullet. But it's a real loss to the entire community--and industry--that these standards aren't freely available. Quality of implementations would be so much better if standards were always open, and sunlight might help minimize the complexity of these things by exposing the flexibility demanded by proprietary vendors on the committees as useless barriers to entry.
pmontra 8y ago
Maybe pedantic but according to https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/desktop/power/system-power-states#sleep-state-modern-standby https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/desktop/power/syste... S0 is the working state. Active suspend could be what they call Modern Standby or S0 low power.

by 1996 8y ago

gambiting 8y ago

Is that what is happening with the XPS line? My XPS 13 9333 goes to "sleep" but the backlight and the fan stay on, and the only way to revive it is to do a hard reset. And that's on latest windows 10.

1996 8y ago
Yes. You must either cook and inject your own ACPI table (taking inspiration from a similar model to save you time), or go with S0 only using a kernel patch. I have done some bios and acpi code before on coreboot. It is tough, lots of work and no guaranteed results if you don't have access to the specs (NDA) Anyway I really don't recommend you do that unless you have experience, documentation and time.

xfs 8y ago

I don't think this is even S0 suspend. At least a few year ago thinkpads have already moved to something called IRST, Intel's "suspend to SSD after sleeping for several hours" at firmware level. See https://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/26022.html https://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/26022.html for details. I actually got it working with the latest kernel at that time but didn't feel comfortable using it because of all the horror stories with firmware level shenanigans.

1996 8y ago
this is something else. IRST was Intel custom implementation, back when S0 did not exist. It required a custom partition. IIRC, suspend to disk when battery runs out is now one of the standard S0 features. At the OS level (windows 10) there is a telemetry to check the depletion rate, and initiate suspend to disk when the rate is too high or battery is too low. Check the logs made by microsoft powercfg, they are very informative and will help you reach power savings close to what S3 allowed. But I need that to work in Linux too, and last time I checked it wasn't as good.
- beagle3 8y ago
  > At the OS level (windows 10) there is a telemetry Nitpick: "Telemetry" means "measurement far away". Does this get sent to microsoft ("tele") or is it just a measurement ("metric")?

makomk 8y ago

It sounds like this isn't just some arbitrary decision, but Windows actually requires S3 to be removed in order to use the new suspend mode. From the thread: "When ACPI table was changed to support S3, Windows Modern Standby doesn't work. Modern Standby and Suspend/Resume functions are working exclusively."

1996 8y ago
Because someone was too lazy to bother with a if/else, because first implementations of S0 were so bad.
nixpulvis 8y ago
Make it a BOIS setting then.
- 1996 8y ago
  No need: the bios can present different acpi tables depending on the OS who is asking for them. all it takes is a switch (case when..statement. So there was no reason whatsoever to remove the code.
  - makomk 8y ago
    Because so many BIOSes provide completely broken ACPI tables to non-Windows OSes, I think Linux reports itself as being Windows to the ACPI code these days. So no, it probably can't.

nextos 8y ago

It's worrying how obscure and poor standards compliance modern hardware is starting to display. And we're talking about PCs. Let's not even discuss mobiles. In 2012 I bought a MacBook Air to run Linux. It's a great silent machine with all Intel hardware, except the pretty poor quality Broadcom wireless card. It boots with any vanilla kernel, and everything just works. Except for poor wireless range. What machine can I buy these days that? i) Just works on Linux (which in practice means everything has to be Intel, including the wireless card) ii) Is reasonably silent The only machine I've found worth considering is a Xiaomi Air 12 with a m3 (fanless) CPU. Some Thinkpads are OK, but they tend to be on the noisy side of things due to excessively small fans and too much power I don't need. This, despite aggressively tweaking powertop settings. I'm also looking for external USB high-gain wireless antennas. But even classic Alfa ones with Atheros 9271 chipsets are a hit and miss. It's a bit hopeless. If someone has good suggestions, I'd be glad to consider them.

wahern 8y ago
> It's worrying how obscure and poor standards compliance modern hardware is starting to display. The standards are too complex. I've spent thousands of dollars on ISO standards documents over the past several years.[1] The complexity of these documents is absurd. And I've never seen an implementation that came close to adhering to the entirety of the standard--everybody always takes shortcuts because it's not cost-effective otherwise. The problem is, everybody takes different shortcuts, so you end up with endless interoperability problems. The exceptions are often when everybody sources hardware or software implementations from a single vendor. That's when things go more smoothly because everybody is using the same half-baked driver or firmware. [1] The last document I purchased was 138CHF (coincidentally $138USD at today's exchange rate). They've always been at least that much in recent memory, and often standards are broken up into separate documents or incorporated by reference so you're paying 4x or 5x to get the entire standard. There's alot of free documentation online that open source developers often use, but personally I find it difficult to wrap my head around these things unless I have an idea of the overall design. (I want to see the overall picture so my initial API and architecture isn't a pile of technical debt from day 1.) I have the means so I bite the bullet. But it's a real loss to the entire community--and industry--that these standards aren't freely available. Quality of implementations would be so much better if standards were always open, and sunlight might help minimize the complexity of these things by exposing the flexibility demanded by proprietary vendors on the committees as useless barriers to entry.

pmontra 8y ago

Maybe pedantic but according to https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/desktop/power/system-power-states#sleep-state-modern-standby https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/desktop/power/syste... S0 is the working state. Active suspend could be what they call Modern Standby or S0 low power.