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I don't consider myself the worlds best programmer, but I feel that it's kind of demeaning with a programming contest. It's like when you go to a job recruiting

I don't consider myself the worlds best programmer, but I feel that it's kind of demeaning with a programming contest. It's like when you go to a job recruiting agency and they run all this shit IQ test shit on you. If they want you in that setting - run like hell. If you want me, let me show you what I have done - I don't want to compete in a programming contest where the grand prize is a poorly paid job, where you are expected to work unpaid overtime and be subservient. I know my worth, and is pretty happy running my own startup business defining my own terms as I go along. I looked at a job at klarna but the thought of spending some time re-sharpening my skills at Erlang and then spending some days doing their code challenge unpaid - not so interested. I'd rather do something else and get my moneys worth for my time. Although I'm kind of tempted for a job where I get a chance to work face-to-face with some more senior people to learn from them. Some time though I might want to take a job, my plan to be able to skip all these silly programming contests is to have some open source projects or contributions to show. I have a couple of project that I wish I had been able to open-source, but I think that I will go by the route of contributing to some existing project. I feel that recruiting by looking at open source is a very good thing, where the interests of both employer and employee are upheld.

aaronblohowiak 16y ago
The programming contests should be fun! If they aren't your thing, then you are right to opt-out of the process as there likely won't be a good culture match. However, I think it is a little off to characterize them as somehow extorting job applicants.
- sunkencity 16y ago
  I've participated in several programming contests and think it's a lot of fun. what I dislike is when a company is hiring and expect applicants to do free labour. it's bad for everybody, the company doesn't get to hire people who have got a life or are too busy with other things. and the applicant is welcomed by the message - we expect you to work for free. having a programming competition in the open might alleviate some of the problems of doing work and sending it off into the void.
parbo 16y ago
I agree that open source contributions is a great way to show what you can do. I don't really have the time to make significant contributions to open source projects on my free time. A four hour programming contest, that I can do. I put a lot of effort into the follow up assignment though, but I'm pretty sure that if I'd had a similar sized project that I could show, that would have been fine too. I don't think you will find a single company that will pay you for time spent on tests or assignments during the recruitment process. It's not like you go in and create production code for them.
- sunkencity 16y ago
  Personally I would gladly pay a prospective employee let's say 2-4 hours worth of consultancy fee to come over and code a simple example test, or preferably do a minor thing as a consultant (let's say a few days work). That is if I have screened them before for basic qualification. It would set the scene for a good future relationship and might help encourage the person to take the job. It's also good to start out with consultancy before actually hiring someone to screen and to set up expectations of level of delivery - consultants work harder and have a more professional attitude than a straight-up employee. Though I don't know if the transition from consultant to employee is that easy, I've certainly preferred to stay a consultant and seen no benefit in becoming an employee.
  - parbo 16y ago
    "consultants work harder and have a more professional attitude than a straight-up employee" - citation needed
    - sunkencity 16y ago
      That's from personal experience, but of course YMMV, but I've often found myself in the situation where it's late in the evening, things are not working right in the production environment and the only people left at the office are the consultants.
      - 16y ago
dLuna 16y ago
I think that the code challenge was mostly aimed at students, where the time spent writing something semi cool is not just wasted time. Having been on the hiring side for software developers at Klarna I have seen too many people in interviews that can't "write a function that counts the number of words in a sentence, in any programming language". So having something that measures your competence pre-interview is good. When I got hired by Klarna I never had to do any programming. I had actual code out there in the wild that I could point to. Getting to the interview stage at Klarna is easy. Getting an actual job offer is harder. (Btw. If you don't like IQ tests then don't look for a job at Klarna...)
- sunkencity 16y ago
  It might have been the recruiting agency that was at fault at the number of tests. I had to do the IQ test there and some sort of introductory programming test. All done and well, but then I was hit with this rather comprehensive programming test or whatever that had to be done in Erlang (I learned later I could have used any programming language). I just didn't feel it would be worth my time. A friend who is a really smart guy got in touch with a recruiter from google during his last year at the university doing his PhD. At first it seemed interesting but when he saw how much time the recruiter expected him to put in for interviews and tests he wasn't so interested any more and continued his career in academia instead.

aaronblohowiak 16y ago

The programming contests should be fun! If they aren't your thing, then you are right to opt-out of the process as there likely won't be a good culture match. However, I think it is a little off to characterize them as somehow extorting job applicants.

sunkencity 16y ago
I've participated in several programming contests and think it's a lot of fun. what I dislike is when a company is hiring and expect applicants to do free labour. it's bad for everybody, the company doesn't get to hire people who have got a life or are too busy with other things. and the applicant is welcomed by the message - we expect you to work for free. having a programming competition in the open might alleviate some of the problems of doing work and sending it off into the void.

parbo 16y ago

I agree that open source contributions is a great way to show what you can do. I don't really have the time to make significant contributions to open source projects on my free time. A four hour programming contest, that I can do. I put a lot of effort into the follow up assignment though, but I'm pretty sure that if I'd had a similar sized project that I could show, that would have been fine too. I don't think you will find a single company that will pay you for time spent on tests or assignments during the recruitment process. It's not like you go in and create production code for them.

sunkencity 16y ago
Personally I would gladly pay a prospective employee let's say 2-4 hours worth of consultancy fee to come over and code a simple example test, or preferably do a minor thing as a consultant (let's say a few days work). That is if I have screened them before for basic qualification. It would set the scene for a good future relationship and might help encourage the person to take the job. It's also good to start out with consultancy before actually hiring someone to screen and to set up expectations of level of delivery - consultants work harder and have a more professional attitude than a straight-up employee. Though I don't know if the transition from consultant to employee is that easy, I've certainly preferred to stay a consultant and seen no benefit in becoming an employee.
- parbo 16y ago
  "consultants work harder and have a more professional attitude than a straight-up employee" - citation needed
  - sunkencity 16y ago
    That's from personal experience, but of course YMMV, but I've often found myself in the situation where it's late in the evening, things are not working right in the production environment and the only people left at the office are the consultants.
    - 16y ago

dLuna 16y ago

I think that the code challenge was mostly aimed at students, where the time spent writing something semi cool is not just wasted time. Having been on the hiring side for software developers at Klarna I have seen too many people in interviews that can't "write a function that counts the number of words in a sentence, in any programming language". So having something that measures your competence pre-interview is good. When I got hired by Klarna I never had to do any programming. I had actual code out there in the wild that I could point to. Getting to the interview stage at Klarna is easy. Getting an actual job offer is harder. (Btw. If you don't like IQ tests then don't look for a job at Klarna...)

sunkencity 16y ago
It might have been the recruiting agency that was at fault at the number of tests. I had to do the IQ test there and some sort of introductory programming test. All done and well, but then I was hit with this rather comprehensive programming test or whatever that had to be done in Erlang (I learned later I could have used any programming language). I just didn't feel it would be worth my time. A friend who is a really smart guy got in touch with a recruiter from google during his last year at the university doing his PhD. At first it seemed interesting but when he saw how much time the recruiter expected him to put in for interviews and tests he wasn't so interested any more and continued his career in academia instead.