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This is definitely useful to keep in mind, but I think one point that might not be represented adequately is the utility of a standard. I understand that there

This is definitely useful to keep in mind, but I think one point that might not be represented adequately is the utility of a standard. I understand that there are difficulties for people speaking in a nonnative accent, but there is also actual value in being close to standard and having less accents considered standard. When many people are specializing in many things, having a standard way of speaking allows us to more quickly understand one another and skip the basics. The judgement that I personally make when I hear a non-standard accent is not that they are lower in status; it's simply that it will take more work on my end to understand them, and thus I'm less inclined to deal with them in particular because of the language barrier and my being lazy.

DonaldPShimoda 8y ago
> The judgement that I personally make when I hear a non-standard accent is not that they are lower in status; it's simply that it will take more work on my end to understand them, and thus I'm less inclined to deal with them in particular because of the language barrier and my being lazy. Not everybody understands this. There are plenty of people in the US who think Southerners are stupid just because of their accent, or who look poorly upon speakers of African American Vernacular English (AAVE) simply because of the perceived difference in class, regardless of actual education or intellectual capability. It's terribly unfortunate, but pop culture often leans into the stereotypes, reinforcing the perception of a class distinction. Additionally, I think your decision to still avoid non-native speakers is somewhat disappointing. How are they (non-native speakers) supposed to get better if nobody will interact with them? A native accent comes from a combination of things (fluency, confidence, and exposure to the accent itself). Choosing not to interact with them prevents them from being exposed, and it also lessens their confidence. It's super obvious when a native speaker is just trying to get away from a situation like that, and I can only imagine how disheartening it would be to be the non-native speaker in such a situation.
- dhon_ 8y ago
  I've heard a theory that the slow southern accent was due to a hookworm outbreak. So maybe historically at least there was some validity in the assumption. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/next/nature/how-a-worm-gave-the-south-a-bad-name/ http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/next/nature/how-a-worm-gave-the...
  - cosmiccartel 8y ago
    You have the theory reversed. It's that hookworms caused lethargy, which was perceived as laziness. As a result, the southern accent has become associated with laziness. Personally, I think it's more related to negative opinions about the South following the Civil War, which is why even upper-class southern accents face the same stigma.
  - DoreenMichele 8y ago
    I'm not going to look up citations, but I will suggest that the South lagged behind the rest of the nation educationally and in other ways in part because much of the Civil War was fought on Southern turf and they burned Atlanta to the ground because it was an important manufacturing center that was probably way ahead of most Northern cities and it was keeping the Southern army resupplied. Burning Atlanta to the ground left behind a legacy of reduced infrastructure and the South was very bitter about it. Unfortunately, I don't know the name of the book, which was very well documented, but I read a history of the Deep South at one time. It is unfortunate I can't remember the name because it documented something that flies in the face of what most people apparently believe about the Federal minimum wage law. This book asserted that it was an anti-racist policy intended to end the practice in the Deep South of paying Blacks half of what Whites made. Many Blacks were fired after it was passed because Southerners often were simply unwilling to pay Blacks "a White man's wage." World War 2 was instrumental in making the Federal minimum wage law stick. Before that, it was proving to be a failed and unenforceable policy. Up to half the population in the South is Black (it no doubt varies, but it is about half in the city I grew up in) and under slavery they were forbidden from learning to read and write. It was one of the ways they were controlled. So when you suddenly have something like half your population made up of freed slaves, most of whom are illiterate and who carry a lot of baggage about being forbidden from learning, yes, the area as a whole is going to lag behind the rest of the nation educationally. It will take a long time to start remedying such a deficit. Many hot places have a reputation for being lackadaisical. In Mexico, they have a tradition of taking siestas -- naps -- during the hottest part of the day. In the Middle East, they have the expression "Only mad dogs and Englishman" to refer to who would be going about their business out of doors during the hottest part of the day. The Deep South in the US is not only hot, it is also humid. I grew up in Georgia and I have lived in Southern California and Texas, among other places. When it is humid, you can't just drink more and sweat it out. It won't evaporate. It's like a sauna. So the only thing that makes sense is to sit your ass down on the front porch in the shade in a rocking chair and make chit chat until it isn't so hot that doing stuff threatens to cause fainting. As a wild ass guess, this is the origin of the slow Southern drawl -- getting through the heat of the day without heat stroke, pre-AC, by slowing down and sitting a spell, during which time you didn't want to do anything too energetically, not even talk. And then it is completely and totally normal for people to make associations that run both ways, where the Southern drawl becomes a signifier for poverty, lack of education, etc since those things were common there, though it really had nothing to do with inherent stupidity of the locals.
- dbelchamber 8y ago
  I don't make the decision to avoid them. I said that "I'm less inclined to deal with them". That's a very important distinction.
allemagne 8y ago
This is in fact directly stated and addressed in the article: >It’s certainly true that a marked accent can get in the way of making yourself understood. E.S.L. learners and others are well advised to work on their pronunciation. As a teacher, I do try to lead my students toward some version of that flawed ideal, the native accent. ... My point is not that we need to forget the aim of easily comprehensible communication — obviously, that remains the goal. But we do need to set aside the illusion that there is a single true and authentic way to speak.
- dbelchamber 8y ago
  Yes, but given the context of the article, this did not seem to be an adequate representation of the other side. There is more to it than the idea of "a single true and authentic way to speak". I would say that a better way to frame it is "an organic coalescence into normative standards for better cooperation".
Broken_Hippo 8y ago
This is just a thought from the other point of view - from a person with an accent: I tend to avoid people that avoid me because of my accent. Granted, English is my first language and Norwegian my second... but I never know what to think. I'm sometimes difficult to understand. I know this and I'm working on it. I do switch to English if the other person understands it (It is very common, even if they have trouble speaking). I can carry on basic conversations, though sometimes I get lost with new vocabulary or am simply not fast enough to join in. I can work basic jobs with patient folks. I slowly reading adult novels. But when people avoid me for not speaking well enough, I can't tell if it is because I'm having a bad day with the language or if the person is an asshole. Nearly everyone I speak to in English has an accent. I've one friend here that is a native English speaker, but even then our accents are different - him being British and me American. However, I also know that if you expose yourself to accents more often, they become easier to understand. This is where the lazyness comes in, I'm sure, but heck. I'd personally rather not be the asshole.
- dbelchamber 8y ago
  I'm just honestly representing my subconscious reaction to not understanding people easily at times. Perhaps I should put more effort into it for more people. I definitely have plenty of relationships with non-native speakers. It just takes more time for me to acclimate to them, and therefore there is a greater cost to doing so.
frobozz 8y ago
> but there is also actual value in being close to standard and having less accents considered standard So who gets to decide what is standard and what isn't and why?
- bcoates 8y ago
  For the US it's the accent located in the population center of the country, of course. A little south of Kansas city on the Missouri side of the river.
- tropo 8y ago
  We do this by consensus, instinctively choosing whatever is most typical for the powerful, or perhaps a slightly exaggerated version of that. So: doctors, lawyers, politicians, rich people, random TV personalities, CEOs, generals...
  - frobozz 8y ago
    So the same accent as Malcolm Turnbull, Jacinta Ardern, The Queen, Donald Trump, Leo Varadkar, my Polish GP, my Italian dentist, Elon Musk, Alan Sugar and Duncan Bannatyne. I'm not sure that works.
- dbelchamber 8y ago
  I would say that it's a nebulous and organic process that settles into particular pronunciations. One thing a lot of people don't realize is that the British accent is actually considerably more divergent from the one that was common to America and England in 1600 (I can't seem to find the source right now, but will edit if/when I do). I'm not saying that it's right, just that it happens and that there are valid reasons for it happening.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
jojo64 8y ago
Did you try to learn another language? I found that people who learnt another language are less conservative on their native language and make effort to speak slowly etc. Generally speaking they are more open-minded when they travel abroad.
- dbelchamber 8y ago
  I would not say that I'm fluent at Spanish, but I have and continue to put in some effort to speak it.
keerthiko 8y ago
I grew up bilingual outside the US, and speak English with a hybrid British/Indian/Middle Eastern accent (with some of my personal quirks, and mixing increasing amounts of Californian over time). I can understand English in nearly any accent (Singaporean, Chinese, Vietnamese, Indian, Nigerian) as long as the words involved are globally used and the grammar is passably queen's. Especially after hearing it for about an hour. And people who natively speak English with these various accents usually can understand my English better than they can an average American accent. Yet in this country, my accent is mocked, despite being perfectly understood and more versatile. Even by others who don't speak with the American accent! This is the problem of the "default accent" anywhere being referred to as "no accent", and therefore anything deviating is considered "having an accent". This makes "accent" a negative trait, scaling from 0-bad to heavy-bad. But if the vernacular were such that we said "American accent" instead of "no accent", then noone's accent is bad, just not used to. This isn't directed at parent in particular, but just voicing a pet peeve: It's extremely offensive to imply someone's command of a language is bad just because you aren't familiar with their accent. Most of my non-American peers who were raised on English have a better command of the language than my American ones, yet they are mocked for their accents as if they don't know the language, when in reality it's the Americans lack of familiarity with the language (as its used globally) preventing them from comprehending the language. So yes, put in more work, the world is shrinking and English is the global language. What you're saying is spoken from a position of privilege because the culture allows you to mock others' accents rather than the other way around. Remember, every time you hear English with an accent other than British, American or Australian, it usually means the speaker knows at least one entire other language as well, probably one that you would sound like an idiot if you tried to speak it. Don't be rude or dismissive of their intelligence.
- shankr 8y ago
  I have to agree with this assessment. My accent is actually quite neutral and while traveling outside of USA, it's easily understood by local people in comparison to accent from USA, Australia or England. This summer I was traveling in Balkan countries with an American friend from USA, and people had hard time understanding him. I had to chime in lot of time to explain what he is asking for. Also, there were certain words which I think are very specific to American English, but not used outside of USA e.g. crosswalks instead of zebra crossing. This also makes it bit more difficult to understand American accent for those who don't watch lot of American TV shows or movies.

DonaldPShimoda 8y ago

> The judgement that I personally make when I hear a non-standard accent is not that they are lower in status; it's simply that it will take more work on my end to understand them, and thus I'm less inclined to deal with them in particular because of the language barrier and my being lazy. Not everybody understands this. There are plenty of people in the US who think Southerners are stupid just because of their accent, or who look poorly upon speakers of African American Vernacular English (AAVE) simply because of the perceived difference in class, regardless of actual education or intellectual capability. It's terribly unfortunate, but pop culture often leans into the stereotypes, reinforcing the perception of a class distinction. Additionally, I think your decision to still avoid non-native speakers is somewhat disappointing. How are they (non-native speakers) supposed to get better if nobody will interact with them? A native accent comes from a combination of things (fluency, confidence, and exposure to the accent itself). Choosing not to interact with them prevents them from being exposed, and it also lessens their confidence. It's super obvious when a native speaker is just trying to get away from a situation like that, and I can only imagine how disheartening it would be to be the non-native speaker in such a situation.

dhon_ 8y ago
I've heard a theory that the slow southern accent was due to a hookworm outbreak. So maybe historically at least there was some validity in the assumption. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/next/nature/how-a-worm-gave-the-south-a-bad-name/ http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/next/nature/how-a-worm-gave-the...
- cosmiccartel 8y ago
  You have the theory reversed. It's that hookworms caused lethargy, which was perceived as laziness. As a result, the southern accent has become associated with laziness. Personally, I think it's more related to negative opinions about the South following the Civil War, which is why even upper-class southern accents face the same stigma.
- DoreenMichele 8y ago
  I'm not going to look up citations, but I will suggest that the South lagged behind the rest of the nation educationally and in other ways in part because much of the Civil War was fought on Southern turf and they burned Atlanta to the ground because it was an important manufacturing center that was probably way ahead of most Northern cities and it was keeping the Southern army resupplied. Burning Atlanta to the ground left behind a legacy of reduced infrastructure and the South was very bitter about it. Unfortunately, I don't know the name of the book, which was very well documented, but I read a history of the Deep South at one time. It is unfortunate I can't remember the name because it documented something that flies in the face of what most people apparently believe about the Federal minimum wage law. This book asserted that it was an anti-racist policy intended to end the practice in the Deep South of paying Blacks half of what Whites made. Many Blacks were fired after it was passed because Southerners often were simply unwilling to pay Blacks "a White man's wage." World War 2 was instrumental in making the Federal minimum wage law stick. Before that, it was proving to be a failed and unenforceable policy. Up to half the population in the South is Black (it no doubt varies, but it is about half in the city I grew up in) and under slavery they were forbidden from learning to read and write. It was one of the ways they were controlled. So when you suddenly have something like half your population made up of freed slaves, most of whom are illiterate and who carry a lot of baggage about being forbidden from learning, yes, the area as a whole is going to lag behind the rest of the nation educationally. It will take a long time to start remedying such a deficit. Many hot places have a reputation for being lackadaisical. In Mexico, they have a tradition of taking siestas -- naps -- during the hottest part of the day. In the Middle East, they have the expression "Only mad dogs and Englishman" to refer to who would be going about their business out of doors during the hottest part of the day. The Deep South in the US is not only hot, it is also humid. I grew up in Georgia and I have lived in Southern California and Texas, among other places. When it is humid, you can't just drink more and sweat it out. It won't evaporate. It's like a sauna. So the only thing that makes sense is to sit your ass down on the front porch in the shade in a rocking chair and make chit chat until it isn't so hot that doing stuff threatens to cause fainting. As a wild ass guess, this is the origin of the slow Southern drawl -- getting through the heat of the day without heat stroke, pre-AC, by slowing down and sitting a spell, during which time you didn't want to do anything too energetically, not even talk. And then it is completely and totally normal for people to make associations that run both ways, where the Southern drawl becomes a signifier for poverty, lack of education, etc since those things were common there, though it really had nothing to do with inherent stupidity of the locals.
dbelchamber 8y ago
I don't make the decision to avoid them. I said that "I'm less inclined to deal with them". That's a very important distinction.

allemagne 8y ago

This is in fact directly stated and addressed in the article: >It’s certainly true that a marked accent can get in the way of making yourself understood. E.S.L. learners and others are well advised to work on their pronunciation. As a teacher, I do try to lead my students toward some version of that flawed ideal, the native accent. ... My point is not that we need to forget the aim of easily comprehensible communication — obviously, that remains the goal. But we do need to set aside the illusion that there is a single true and authentic way to speak.

dbelchamber 8y ago
Yes, but given the context of the article, this did not seem to be an adequate representation of the other side. There is more to it than the idea of "a single true and authentic way to speak". I would say that a better way to frame it is "an organic coalescence into normative standards for better cooperation".

Broken_Hippo 8y ago

This is just a thought from the other point of view - from a person with an accent: I tend to avoid people that avoid me because of my accent. Granted, English is my first language and Norwegian my second... but I never know what to think. I'm sometimes difficult to understand. I know this and I'm working on it. I do switch to English if the other person understands it (It is very common, even if they have trouble speaking). I can carry on basic conversations, though sometimes I get lost with new vocabulary or am simply not fast enough to join in. I can work basic jobs with patient folks. I slowly reading adult novels. But when people avoid me for not speaking well enough, I can't tell if it is because I'm having a bad day with the language or if the person is an asshole. Nearly everyone I speak to in English has an accent. I've one friend here that is a native English speaker, but even then our accents are different - him being British and me American. However, I also know that if you expose yourself to accents more often, they become easier to understand. This is where the lazyness comes in, I'm sure, but heck. I'd personally rather not be the asshole.

dbelchamber 8y ago
I'm just honestly representing my subconscious reaction to not understanding people easily at times. Perhaps I should put more effort into it for more people. I definitely have plenty of relationships with non-native speakers. It just takes more time for me to acclimate to them, and therefore there is a greater cost to doing so.

frobozz 8y ago

> but there is also actual value in being close to standard and having less accents considered standard So who gets to decide what is standard and what isn't and why?

bcoates 8y ago
For the US it's the accent located in the population center of the country, of course. A little south of Kansas city on the Missouri side of the river.
tropo 8y ago
We do this by consensus, instinctively choosing whatever is most typical for the powerful, or perhaps a slightly exaggerated version of that. So: doctors, lawyers, politicians, rich people, random TV personalities, CEOs, generals...
- frobozz 8y ago
  So the same accent as Malcolm Turnbull, Jacinta Ardern, The Queen, Donald Trump, Leo Varadkar, my Polish GP, my Italian dentist, Elon Musk, Alan Sugar and Duncan Bannatyne. I'm not sure that works.
dbelchamber 8y ago
I would say that it's a nebulous and organic process that settles into particular pronunciations. One thing a lot of people don't realize is that the British accent is actually considerably more divergent from the one that was common to America and England in 1600 (I can't seem to find the source right now, but will edit if/when I do). I'm not saying that it's right, just that it happens and that there are valid reasons for it happening.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

jojo64 8y ago

Did you try to learn another language? I found that people who learnt another language are less conservative on their native language and make effort to speak slowly etc. Generally speaking they are more open-minded when they travel abroad.

dbelchamber 8y ago
I would not say that I'm fluent at Spanish, but I have and continue to put in some effort to speak it.

keerthiko 8y ago

I grew up bilingual outside the US, and speak English with a hybrid British/Indian/Middle Eastern accent (with some of my personal quirks, and mixing increasing amounts of Californian over time). I can understand English in nearly any accent (Singaporean, Chinese, Vietnamese, Indian, Nigerian) as long as the words involved are globally used and the grammar is passably queen's. Especially after hearing it for about an hour. And people who natively speak English with these various accents usually can understand my English better than they can an average American accent. Yet in this country, my accent is mocked, despite being perfectly understood and more versatile. Even by others who don't speak with the American accent! This is the problem of the "default accent" anywhere being referred to as "no accent", and therefore anything deviating is considered "having an accent". This makes "accent" a negative trait, scaling from 0-bad to heavy-bad. But if the vernacular were such that we said "American accent" instead of "no accent", then noone's accent is bad, just not used to. This isn't directed at parent in particular, but just voicing a pet peeve: It's extremely offensive to imply someone's command of a language is bad just because you aren't familiar with their accent. Most of my non-American peers who were raised on English have a better command of the language than my American ones, yet they are mocked for their accents as if they don't know the language, when in reality it's the Americans lack of familiarity with the language (as its used globally) preventing them from comprehending the language. So yes, put in more work, the world is shrinking and English is the global language. What you're saying is spoken from a position of privilege because the culture allows you to mock others' accents rather than the other way around. Remember, every time you hear English with an accent other than British, American or Australian, it usually means the speaker knows at least one entire other language as well, probably one that you would sound like an idiot if you tried to speak it. Don't be rude or dismissive of their intelligence.

shankr 8y ago
I have to agree with this assessment. My accent is actually quite neutral and while traveling outside of USA, it's easily understood by local people in comparison to accent from USA, Australia or England. This summer I was traveling in Balkan countries with an American friend from USA, and people had hard time understanding him. I had to chime in lot of time to explain what he is asking for. Also, there were certain words which I think are very specific to American English, but not used outside of USA e.g. crosswalks instead of zebra crossing. This also makes it bit more difficult to understand American accent for those who don't watch lot of American TV shows or movies.