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What I don’t get about articles like this is how they just go on and on about how bad of an idea UBI is but don’t propose any kind of a solution. It’s not like

by aeleos 8y ago

What I don’t get about articles like this is how they just go on and on about how bad of an idea UBI is but don’t propose any kind of a solution. It’s not like UBI was created just to have fun, there are legitimate problems facing our society and our current trajectory is that the problems are getting worse. Maybe I am just missing some part of the article but what’s the point of saying something is bad without even talk about ways it could be implemented better or alternatives.

lewis500 8y ago
Yeah all I see here is incoherent posturing. "Most of them [the people living on RSA] indeed live out of poverty, but they are no incentivized whatsoever to get any extra training or even to find a job." This is a plain lie and, besides, has nothing to do with UBI. Regarding, the RSA, it diminishes more slowly than labor earnings (as you can see simply by reading the chart on its short Wikipedia page), so the more money you earn, the more money you get to spend. So there is an incentive to get training and a job. But in any case it has nothing to do with UBI proposals: the UBI idea is that your benefit wouldn't diminish at all as you earn more money, so the incentive to get a job and earn more is even stronger under UBI than under RSA. I think the reason this guy is surrounded by unemployed people living off RSA is that he lives next to defunct villages with high unemployment; these people can't get jobs because they aren't available. Thank god for the benefits then. "I doubt they ever drove a couple of days in the backcountry." Blah blah some ad hominem about tech people being elite nerds that doesn't relate to the efficacy of UBI. I love the implicit claim that this dude gets it because he spends time at his summer home in the rough and tumble "backcountry" of the Loire Valley. "To do so, it must take the long view and start to care about its stakeholders and not only about its shareholders. " Blah blah some word salad that doesn't mean anything specific about policy.
bena 8y ago
> What I don’t get about articles like this is how they just go on and on about how bad of an idea UBI is but don’t propose any kind of a solution. You're falling for the politician's fallacy. You see a problem, you see a proposed solution, and not hearing any other solutions, you've determined that this solution will fix the problem. Recognizing that a solution is bad is worthwhile in and of itself. If he's right and we accept that UBI is the wrong solution to the problem then we can stop funneling time and effort into trying to implement that solution and instead look for a solution that may work. Just because he doesn't have that solution doesn't mean we shouldn't listen to his reasons why UBI won't work. It's like if two non-mechanics were trying to fix an engine and one proposes to slap the engine with his dick until it works again. Just because the other guy doesn't know how to fix the problem doesn't mean he's wrong when he says that slapping the engine with a dick isn't going to fix the problem.
- repolfx 8y ago
  The fallacy runs even deeper than that. There might be no solution at all, by the construction of the problem. The correct response to "this will not solve the problem you want to solve" is not "ok so you give me a better solution then", unless the problem is so existential that even doing something horribly wrong is still better than doing nothing. The correct response may well be, "this will not work, therefore we should do nothing".
  - bena 8y ago
    That is true. It's like the Jurassic World movie that just came out. The dinosaurs are in danger of dying because the island is about to explode. Some characters are trying to figure out a way to save the dinosaurs, but, to paraphrase the original Jurassic Park, they're so preoccupied with how to do it they're not even stopping to think whether they should. It's also very likely that the issues with this fall into the category of a "wicked problem".
  - slededit 8y ago
    I've noticed over time that "doing nothing" is scary to most people on a subconcious level. It breaks the illusion that we have total control over our world.
    - invalidOrTaken 8y ago
      I am one of those people. My productivity has improved greatly by gritting my teeth and forcing myself to do it(nothing), though. For instance, rather than commenting here right now, I should be doing nothing and figuring out which of my many tasks I should be doing.

by aeleos 8y ago

lewis500 8y ago

Yeah all I see here is incoherent posturing. "Most of them [the people living on RSA] indeed live out of poverty, but they are no incentivized whatsoever to get any extra training or even to find a job." This is a plain lie and, besides, has nothing to do with UBI. Regarding, the RSA, it diminishes more slowly than labor earnings (as you can see simply by reading the chart on its short Wikipedia page), so the more money you earn, the more money you get to spend. So there is an incentive to get training and a job. But in any case it has nothing to do with UBI proposals: the UBI idea is that your benefit wouldn't diminish at all as you earn more money, so the incentive to get a job and earn more is even stronger under UBI than under RSA. I think the reason this guy is surrounded by unemployed people living off RSA is that he lives next to defunct villages with high unemployment; these people can't get jobs because they aren't available. Thank god for the benefits then. "I doubt they ever drove a couple of days in the backcountry." Blah blah some ad hominem about tech people being elite nerds that doesn't relate to the efficacy of UBI. I love the implicit claim that this dude gets it because he spends time at his summer home in the rough and tumble "backcountry" of the Loire Valley. "To do so, it must take the long view and start to care about its stakeholders and not only about its shareholders. " Blah blah some word salad that doesn't mean anything specific about policy.

bena 8y ago

> What I don’t get about articles like this is how they just go on and on about how bad of an idea UBI is but don’t propose any kind of a solution. You're falling for the politician's fallacy. You see a problem, you see a proposed solution, and not hearing any other solutions, you've determined that this solution will fix the problem. Recognizing that a solution is bad is worthwhile in and of itself. If he's right and we accept that UBI is the wrong solution to the problem then we can stop funneling time and effort into trying to implement that solution and instead look for a solution that may work. Just because he doesn't have that solution doesn't mean we shouldn't listen to his reasons why UBI won't work. It's like if two non-mechanics were trying to fix an engine and one proposes to slap the engine with his dick until it works again. Just because the other guy doesn't know how to fix the problem doesn't mean he's wrong when he says that slapping the engine with a dick isn't going to fix the problem.

repolfx 8y ago
The fallacy runs even deeper than that. There might be no solution at all, by the construction of the problem. The correct response to "this will not solve the problem you want to solve" is not "ok so you give me a better solution then", unless the problem is so existential that even doing something horribly wrong is still better than doing nothing. The correct response may well be, "this will not work, therefore we should do nothing".
- bena 8y ago
  That is true. It's like the Jurassic World movie that just came out. The dinosaurs are in danger of dying because the island is about to explode. Some characters are trying to figure out a way to save the dinosaurs, but, to paraphrase the original Jurassic Park, they're so preoccupied with how to do it they're not even stopping to think whether they should. It's also very likely that the issues with this fall into the category of a "wicked problem".
- slededit 8y ago
  I've noticed over time that "doing nothing" is scary to most people on a subconcious level. It breaks the illusion that we have total control over our world.
  - invalidOrTaken 8y ago
    I am one of those people. My productivity has improved greatly by gritting my teeth and forcing myself to do it(nothing), though. For instance, rather than commenting here right now, I should be doing nothing and figuring out which of my many tasks I should be doing.