5 ms·

Although I expect this will be downvoted for being insensitive (unless the reverse psychology of saying so prevents it), I'm going to call bs on this person's e

by ellyagg 16y ago

Although I expect this will be downvoted for being insensitive (unless the reverse psychology of saying so prevents it), I'm going to call bs on this person's experiences. In fact, it sounds more like what a woman planning to "transition" or who has transitioned toward being a man would fantasize things are like. I'm an all-American looking US male, approachable and probably in the 90th percentile with regard to looks, and woman (especially flirtatious, pouty ones) do not ask me for mechanical or technical advice unless they specifically know that I'm a programmer. Neither do men. The people that DO know me know not to ask for mechanical help or advice because they know that I'm not mechanically inclined. If it were true that people who knew him as a woman started asking him for mechanical help because he became a man, even though they knew he wasn't mechanically inclined, then people who know me would behave the same, regardless of past information, and that doesn't happen.

TGJ 16y ago
If you take into account bone structure and facial recognition, he/she might be more approachable by women for having a friendlier face.
- joshzayin 16y ago
  FYI, the correct pronoun to use here would be "he," as Mr. Forrister identifies as male, not female.
  - TGJ 16y ago
    I'm sorry but I simply do not agree and I doubt this is the place to delve any further.
    - jackowayed 16y ago
      You don't agree with referring to people as the gender that they consider themselves? There's a lot of people out there that don't like their first names, so they go by their middle names. I don't see how calling a female-to-male transgendered person "she" or "he/she" is any different from calling someone that prefers their middle name by their first name. In both cases, you're shoehorning them into a way of identifying themselves that works fine for most people (Most people go by their first names; most people go by the gender they were biologically born as.) but does not work for them. In both cases you're being an asshole.
      - TGJ 16y ago
        Thank you for calling me an asshole for not agreeing with you. Thank you for calling me an asshole for not subscribing to the same set of morals that you have. Thank you for calling me an asshole for thinking that drugs and cosmetic surgery do not make the person, the person just is. Thank you for calling me an asshole.
        joshzayin 16y ago
        > the person just is Exactly. Transsexuals were born with the incorrect genitals. The drugs and cosmetic surgery do not correct their gender--just the physical expression of it. Referring to them as the incorrect gender is no different than referring to a cisgendered person as the incorrect gender--worse, actually, because transsexuals likely struggle with identity issues and bigotry much more so than cisgendered people, and by referring to a transgendered person by the incorrect gender, you're only making that problem worse.
        TGJ 16y ago
        So what would this person be 100 years ago? Without these options of drugs and cosmetics, that person would have to deal with they way that they were born. They would have to live life as the person that they were born. They are not fixing anything by taking drugs or cosmetics, they are hiding from the underlying problems of self-identity. You going along with the charade only complicates the problem of the person not actualizing the situation that they are in and dealing with it. I offered no bigotry, but I sure received it.
        joshzayin 16y ago
        Bigotry? What is your definition of bigotry that you think any response you've received is bigoted? As to what they would've done 100 years ago, how is that in any way relevant? This isn't "hiding" any issues--transsexuality is a medically diagnosable condition, not just a "self-identity" problem that they are "hiding from," and to imply otherwise is a huge insult to transsexuals.
    - Psyonic 16y ago
      Apparently discussion on the matter isn't acceptable here. I don't know that I agree with you, but you were polite, and I definitely wouldn't have downvoted you for expressing your views.
      - pjscott 16y ago
        That wasn't really discussion, though, was it? A flat "I don't agree, and I don't want to go into it further" doesn't contribute much except frustration. If there had been some argument, some reasoning to back it up, then that would have been fine. Discussion on the matter is acceptable here, as the ensuing discussion has shown. But simple drive-by contradiction? I would say, vote that to about 0.
      - deleted 16y ago
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    - deleted 16y ago
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    - lwhi 16y ago
      It's about respect. If someone feels more aligned with a gender they weren't born with - and they feel the need to do something about it, then they deserve to be have their needs respected.
akgerber 16y ago
That experience probably also has to do with context. I'm willing to bet the female-male ratio at a community college generates difference experiences & expectations as opposed to the experiences a lot of us nerds live in heavily-male technical programs & professions.
lwhi 16y ago
You're not in a position to be able to judge the difference - because you've never been a woman. We don't notice the things which have always been true.
- lwhi 16y ago
  Just because your own unique experience of life, doesn't match up to someone else's, it doesn't mean that person's experience is bullshit. It's just an expression of arrogance to expect otherwise.
mahmud 16y ago
You can't believe it but it's true. Have you seen straight biological women around transgender people? Women exaggerate their observance of gender roles around transgender people; they treat butch lesbians like they're Arnold Schwartzenneger, and shemales/trannies like they're some kind of Marilyn Monroe. Some men do that too, buy trannies free drinks in clubs and kissing their hands (yeah, like they do that with biological women) while female to male transgender guys just get away with being rude and confrontational. I hope this doesn't offend anyone.
- joshzayin 16y ago
  Disregarding your slurs ("shemales," "trannies," and "butch lesbians"), you seem to be acting as though it is somehow trivial to tell if someone is transsexual, or that all transsexuals tell everyone they know or have just met that they are transsexual. Are you just referring to transsexuals whose friends know that they are transsexual, or do you claim that people can somehow always tell if a person they've met is transsexual? Or some other option, and my interpretation of your post was a bad one? I'd like to see some evidence that what you claim about behaviors around transsexuals is true more than anecdotally. Additionally, you are disregarding the vast amounts of transphobia and violence targeted at transsexuals. You are painting the picture that transsexuals have a great, wonderful life post-op. That is patently not true. (See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_unlawfully_killed_transgender_people http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_unlawfully_killed_trans... for a short list of some people who have been killed purely for being transsexual.)
  - mahmud 16y ago
    1) You cherry-picked my "misuse" of a few words that I am certain are endonyms used by transgender people to describe themselves. 2) You ignored my conscious use of gender neutral language, including the much derided (by the transphobes) "biological" adjective. 3) You can't always tell if someone is transgendered, but there is that funny word, "passable". Yeah, I might be a hairy, straight Arab brute but I know my queer culture. Well, there are some non-passable transgendered people who, for some reason, garner the extraordinary treatment I described above. 4) God bless their souls, my fallen angels, my transgender brothers and sisters (in the most specific, "flesh of my flesh" humane sense of the word.) I feel their pain. I mean no disrespect, and my original post carried the apology without edit. But that still doesn't change my experience; maybe because I have always lived in tolerant, non-dipshit societies. In fact, I would say I have seen Free, happy and socially accepted transgender people in Pakistan, of all places. [Edit: 5) What I wrote above was lamenting what I perceive to be unique treatment of transgender people. It might not be universal, but it's something I have witnessed, and I don't think it's right. FWIW. I don't kiss ass to biological women or take BS from biological men, so why should I with transgender men and women? Humanity, as a whole, can go fuck itself :-]
jeromec 16y ago
I don't think he is necessarily lying. I can see the computer room story playing out as described. There were five people apparently in the room, all female except for one male. The female with the printer problem saw the "worker" female was busy helping another female, so it was down to a choice between one male and one female working independently at their computers. With that 50/50 choice I can certainly see her gravitating to the male, and possibly for more than one reason. Next, notice all the other assistance requests came from people he already knew -- co-workers and friends who should all be knowledgeable of the transition. I imagine these people might actually be more inclined to ask for "man job" assistance from their friend who now models being a man in a serious way.
- defen 16y ago
  Based on the picture at the top of the article, my interpretation is that the putative computer-room woman perceived him as the type of dorky, non-manly man ("herb") who is easily manipulable by feminine wiles.

by ellyagg 16y ago

TGJ 16y ago

If you take into account bone structure and facial recognition, he/she might be more approachable by women for having a friendlier face.

joshzayin 16y ago
FYI, the correct pronoun to use here would be "he," as Mr. Forrister identifies as male, not female.
- TGJ 16y ago
  I'm sorry but I simply do not agree and I doubt this is the place to delve any further.
  - jackowayed 16y ago
    You don't agree with referring to people as the gender that they consider themselves? There's a lot of people out there that don't like their first names, so they go by their middle names. I don't see how calling a female-to-male transgendered person "she" or "he/she" is any different from calling someone that prefers their middle name by their first name. In both cases, you're shoehorning them into a way of identifying themselves that works fine for most people (Most people go by their first names; most people go by the gender they were biologically born as.) but does not work for them. In both cases you're being an asshole.
    - TGJ 16y ago
      Thank you for calling me an asshole for not agreeing with you. Thank you for calling me an asshole for not subscribing to the same set of morals that you have. Thank you for calling me an asshole for thinking that drugs and cosmetic surgery do not make the person, the person just is. Thank you for calling me an asshole.
      - joshzayin 16y ago
        > the person just is Exactly. Transsexuals were born with the incorrect genitals. The drugs and cosmetic surgery do not correct their gender--just the physical expression of it. Referring to them as the incorrect gender is no different than referring to a cisgendered person as the incorrect gender--worse, actually, because transsexuals likely struggle with identity issues and bigotry much more so than cisgendered people, and by referring to a transgendered person by the incorrect gender, you're only making that problem worse.
        TGJ 16y ago
        So what would this person be 100 years ago? Without these options of drugs and cosmetics, that person would have to deal with they way that they were born. They would have to live life as the person that they were born. They are not fixing anything by taking drugs or cosmetics, they are hiding from the underlying problems of self-identity. You going along with the charade only complicates the problem of the person not actualizing the situation that they are in and dealing with it. I offered no bigotry, but I sure received it.
        joshzayin 16y ago
        Bigotry? What is your definition of bigotry that you think any response you've received is bigoted? As to what they would've done 100 years ago, how is that in any way relevant? This isn't "hiding" any issues--transsexuality is a medically diagnosable condition, not just a "self-identity" problem that they are "hiding from," and to imply otherwise is a huge insult to transsexuals.
  - Psyonic 16y ago
    Apparently discussion on the matter isn't acceptable here. I don't know that I agree with you, but you were polite, and I definitely wouldn't have downvoted you for expressing your views.
    - pjscott 16y ago
      That wasn't really discussion, though, was it? A flat "I don't agree, and I don't want to go into it further" doesn't contribute much except frustration. If there had been some argument, some reasoning to back it up, then that would have been fine. Discussion on the matter is acceptable here, as the ensuing discussion has shown. But simple drive-by contradiction? I would say, vote that to about 0.
    - deleted 16y ago
      [deleted]
  - deleted 16y ago
    [deleted]
  - lwhi 16y ago
    It's about respect. If someone feels more aligned with a gender they weren't born with - and they feel the need to do something about it, then they deserve to be have their needs respected.

akgerber 16y ago

That experience probably also has to do with context. I'm willing to bet the female-male ratio at a community college generates difference experiences & expectations as opposed to the experiences a lot of us nerds live in heavily-male technical programs & professions.

lwhi 16y ago

You're not in a position to be able to judge the difference - because you've never been a woman. We don't notice the things which have always been true.

lwhi 16y ago
Just because your own unique experience of life, doesn't match up to someone else's, it doesn't mean that person's experience is bullshit. It's just an expression of arrogance to expect otherwise.

mahmud 16y ago

You can't believe it but it's true. Have you seen straight biological women around transgender people? Women exaggerate their observance of gender roles around transgender people; they treat butch lesbians like they're Arnold Schwartzenneger, and shemales/trannies like they're some kind of Marilyn Monroe. Some men do that too, buy trannies free drinks in clubs and kissing their hands (yeah, like they do that with biological women) while female to male transgender guys just get away with being rude and confrontational. I hope this doesn't offend anyone.

joshzayin 16y ago
Disregarding your slurs ("shemales," "trannies," and "butch lesbians"), you seem to be acting as though it is somehow trivial to tell if someone is transsexual, or that all transsexuals tell everyone they know or have just met that they are transsexual. Are you just referring to transsexuals whose friends know that they are transsexual, or do you claim that people can somehow always tell if a person they've met is transsexual? Or some other option, and my interpretation of your post was a bad one? I'd like to see some evidence that what you claim about behaviors around transsexuals is true more than anecdotally. Additionally, you are disregarding the vast amounts of transphobia and violence targeted at transsexuals. You are painting the picture that transsexuals have a great, wonderful life post-op. That is patently not true. (See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_unlawfully_killed_transgender_people http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_unlawfully_killed_trans... for a short list of some people who have been killed purely for being transsexual.)
- mahmud 16y ago
  1) You cherry-picked my "misuse" of a few words that I am certain are endonyms used by transgender people to describe themselves. 2) You ignored my conscious use of gender neutral language, including the much derided (by the transphobes) "biological" adjective. 3) You can't always tell if someone is transgendered, but there is that funny word, "passable". Yeah, I might be a hairy, straight Arab brute but I know my queer culture. Well, there are some non-passable transgendered people who, for some reason, garner the extraordinary treatment I described above. 4) God bless their souls, my fallen angels, my transgender brothers and sisters (in the most specific, "flesh of my flesh" humane sense of the word.) I feel their pain. I mean no disrespect, and my original post carried the apology without edit. But that still doesn't change my experience; maybe because I have always lived in tolerant, non-dipshit societies. In fact, I would say I have seen Free, happy and socially accepted transgender people in Pakistan, of all places. [Edit: 5) What I wrote above was lamenting what I perceive to be unique treatment of transgender people. It might not be universal, but it's something I have witnessed, and I don't think it's right. FWIW. I don't kiss ass to biological women or take BS from biological men, so why should I with transgender men and women? Humanity, as a whole, can go fuck itself :-]

jeromec 16y ago

I don't think he is necessarily lying. I can see the computer room story playing out as described. There were five people apparently in the room, all female except for one male. The female with the printer problem saw the "worker" female was busy helping another female, so it was down to a choice between one male and one female working independently at their computers. With that 50/50 choice I can certainly see her gravitating to the male, and possibly for more than one reason. Next, notice all the other assistance requests came from people he already knew -- co-workers and friends who should all be knowledgeable of the transition. I imagine these people might actually be more inclined to ask for "man job" assistance from their friend who now models being a man in a serious way.

defen 16y ago
Based on the picture at the top of the article, my interpretation is that the putative computer-room woman perceived him as the type of dorky, non-manly man ("herb") who is easily manipulable by feminine wiles.