5 ms·

In the sixties a system of wires buried in the centre of the road lanes was invented to guide autonomous vehicles. they could have specific signals injected to

In the sixties a system of wires buried in the centre of the road lanes was invented to guide autonomous vehicles. they could have specific signals injected to specify what road and what lane etc This would be a far more robust and simpler way of achieving autonomous vehicle use.

petee 8y ago
Sounds like an installation and maintenance nightmare. Something like identical rfid chips could provide similar data, and you could simply scatter a handful into the asphalt as it is poured. Or only put chips whenever the road diverges from a straight line
- kayfox 8y ago
  This sounds somewhat impractical, heres some reasons why: 1. Concrete and asphalt significantly attenuate radio signals, especially reinforced concrete. 2. Both concrete and asphalt expand and contract, and would likely damage the chips. 3. Asphalt isn't exactly solid at all times, compounding the issue above. 4. Reading said chips would be difficult, as they would only be in range for a few tens of milliseconds.
  - petee 8y ago
    Good point on #1 & 4, it'd have to be really near the top, and would need super fast read speeds; although #2+3 would be non issues if properly encased. Crazy idea: turn road stripes into magnetic tape, encode the data and read it like a tape player :P
    - c22 8y ago
      You could probably get away with optical encoding, just paint a barcode down the center.
      - kimdotcom 8y ago
        Until a deer is hit by the vehicle, or somebody loses a bucket of paint from the rear of their truck.
  - tuukkah 8y ago
    Regarding #4, I know RFID chips and readers are used for positioning in the Helsinki subway, but I don't know if they have some kind of special antennas allowed by the tracks and the long cars.
    - Fnoord 8y ago
      Possibly also Eurobalise? [1] The Berlin S-Bahn's ZBS (basically "tram") also uses it. But the U-Bahn ("metro") isn't mentioned, and no metro system is mentioned on that Wikipedia page. So I suppose it is some kind off underground variant? [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17548552 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17548552
      - tuukkah 8y ago
        I don't know if Eurobalise is based on RFID. Here's some more public info on the Helsinki RFID case: "rugged, intelligent and innovative turnkey solutions for railroad infrastructure providers and train operators based on passive Gen2 RFID technology." https://turckvilant.com/success_story/helsinki-metro/ https://turckvilant.com/success_story/helsinki-metro/ And here's a reverse system where the track identifies the passing wagons: https://turckvilant.com/success_story/running-at-250km-h/ https://turckvilant.com/success_story/running-at-250km-h/
  - kalleboo 8y ago
    Re: #4, this type of technology is already in use for trains and works at speeds of up to 500 km/h. Of course those are always perfectly aligned. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurobalise https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurobalise
    - Kadin 8y ago
      Very cool -- I was not aware of this. It's interesting that RFID developed out of, partly, a desire by freight train operators to track traincars as they moved around switching yards (moving past fixed readers). The Eurobalise system is sort of the reciprocal of that idea.
  - nine_k 8y ago
    Definitely just throwing RFIDs into the asphalt would be inefficient. They could instead be mounted on the lane-separation poles / walls, on the cat-eye embedded marks, and other things that are installed on the road anyway, and have a good protection and line-of-sight.
    - Kadin 8y ago
      Putting an RFID chip into the lane reflectors / raised pavement markers seems like it would be a good step, and could be useful both to autonomous systems and driver-assist / navigation systems. I doubt it would add a significant percentage to their cost. The nice thing is that you really don't need to use any intelligence when placing the markers. They could be permanently set with a random GUID at time of manufacture, and then just installed in the road. After installation, someone (e.g. Google Maps car or crowdsourced project) could drive the road and cross-reference the RFID GUIDs to their actual location.
- asteli 8y ago
  A metal strip laid along the intended path would be a more elegant, scalable method. We already have the means for producing bulk steel extrusion, and it would be a simple enough matter to have a vehicle follow a strip like that. Simply lower a cam follower to near-ground level, and let the mechanical forces do the steering for you. Of course, you could opt for multiple strips with convex upper surfaces, and wheels with concave ones, such that you obviate the need for a cam follower - gravity provides the forces needed to center a wheel along its guidance strip. If you wanted to bring an Uber/Lyft/Didi model into this, you'd have multiple riders sharing the vehicle (netting them a lower fare, of course), and the conveyance would make several stops along the way. It's true that this might not offer door-to-door convenience, but apparently Uber et al have had success with getting their riders to walk short distances to catch their rides, so we know that it's a viable business model. I've been sitting on some of these ideas for years. Send me your VC contacts, I'd love to get in touch.
  - taneq 8y ago
    If you expose the metal strip you could use it as a power rail for electric cars, too! Although that would leave your highways being potentially deadly to walk on... Edit: Also if you're using shaped wheels to guide the car along the road, I think we've just reinvented the tram.
    - tpxl 8y ago
      That's the point, this is a tram. Autonomous electric mini-trains would be far better than whatever we have today and will have in the near future.
  - icebraining 8y ago
    I quite like trams (especially those from my home town[1]), but there's nothing simple about installing a continuous metal strip on every road. They were replacing an intersection of tram lines near where I lived in Brussels, and it took them over six months for the whole process, with tremendous disruption for the whole area. [1] https://www.lisbonlux.com/images/transportation/rua-augusto-rosa.jpg https://www.lisbonlux.com/images/transportation/rua-augusto-... https://st.depositphotos.com/1000848/4380/i/950/depositphotos_43804127-stock-photo-interior-of-an-old-lisbon.jpg https://st.depositphotos.com/1000848/4380/i/950/depositphoto...
Theodores 8y ago
Here is a classic clip from the 1970's as to where the future was going to be: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ATNdGVpH8A https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ATNdGVpH8A Wires under the road to message drivers and roadside transmitters never caught on but a lot could be done with very basic electronics.
chippy 8y ago
"Researchers Mount Successful Attack on Navigational Wires Buried Under Roads Using Commonly Found Garden Implements"
- code_duck 8y ago
  No more than likely that’s attacks on fiber optic cables near roadways. Anyhow, I think the plan is to put it beneath the road surface.
- Kadin 8y ago
  If you're fine with physically digging up roads in order to cause car crashes, you can do that regardless of whether the vehicles on them are autonomous or not...

petee 8y ago

Sounds like an installation and maintenance nightmare. Something like identical rfid chips could provide similar data, and you could simply scatter a handful into the asphalt as it is poured. Or only put chips whenever the road diverges from a straight line

kayfox 8y ago
This sounds somewhat impractical, heres some reasons why: 1. Concrete and asphalt significantly attenuate radio signals, especially reinforced concrete. 2. Both concrete and asphalt expand and contract, and would likely damage the chips. 3. Asphalt isn't exactly solid at all times, compounding the issue above. 4. Reading said chips would be difficult, as they would only be in range for a few tens of milliseconds.
- petee 8y ago
  Good point on #1 & 4, it'd have to be really near the top, and would need super fast read speeds; although #2+3 would be non issues if properly encased. Crazy idea: turn road stripes into magnetic tape, encode the data and read it like a tape player :P
  - c22 8y ago
    You could probably get away with optical encoding, just paint a barcode down the center.
    - kimdotcom 8y ago
      Until a deer is hit by the vehicle, or somebody loses a bucket of paint from the rear of their truck.
- tuukkah 8y ago
  Regarding #4, I know RFID chips and readers are used for positioning in the Helsinki subway, but I don't know if they have some kind of special antennas allowed by the tracks and the long cars.
  - Fnoord 8y ago
    Possibly also Eurobalise? [1] The Berlin S-Bahn's ZBS (basically "tram") also uses it. But the U-Bahn ("metro") isn't mentioned, and no metro system is mentioned on that Wikipedia page. So I suppose it is some kind off underground variant? [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17548552 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17548552
    - tuukkah 8y ago
      I don't know if Eurobalise is based on RFID. Here's some more public info on the Helsinki RFID case: "rugged, intelligent and innovative turnkey solutions for railroad infrastructure providers and train operators based on passive Gen2 RFID technology." https://turckvilant.com/success_story/helsinki-metro/ https://turckvilant.com/success_story/helsinki-metro/ And here's a reverse system where the track identifies the passing wagons: https://turckvilant.com/success_story/running-at-250km-h/ https://turckvilant.com/success_story/running-at-250km-h/
- kalleboo 8y ago
  Re: #4, this type of technology is already in use for trains and works at speeds of up to 500 km/h. Of course those are always perfectly aligned. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurobalise https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurobalise
  - Kadin 8y ago
    Very cool -- I was not aware of this. It's interesting that RFID developed out of, partly, a desire by freight train operators to track traincars as they moved around switching yards (moving past fixed readers). The Eurobalise system is sort of the reciprocal of that idea.
- nine_k 8y ago
  Definitely just throwing RFIDs into the asphalt would be inefficient. They could instead be mounted on the lane-separation poles / walls, on the cat-eye embedded marks, and other things that are installed on the road anyway, and have a good protection and line-of-sight.
  - Kadin 8y ago
    Putting an RFID chip into the lane reflectors / raised pavement markers seems like it would be a good step, and could be useful both to autonomous systems and driver-assist / navigation systems. I doubt it would add a significant percentage to their cost. The nice thing is that you really don't need to use any intelligence when placing the markers. They could be permanently set with a random GUID at time of manufacture, and then just installed in the road. After installation, someone (e.g. Google Maps car or crowdsourced project) could drive the road and cross-reference the RFID GUIDs to their actual location.
asteli 8y ago
A metal strip laid along the intended path would be a more elegant, scalable method. We already have the means for producing bulk steel extrusion, and it would be a simple enough matter to have a vehicle follow a strip like that. Simply lower a cam follower to near-ground level, and let the mechanical forces do the steering for you. Of course, you could opt for multiple strips with convex upper surfaces, and wheels with concave ones, such that you obviate the need for a cam follower - gravity provides the forces needed to center a wheel along its guidance strip. If you wanted to bring an Uber/Lyft/Didi model into this, you'd have multiple riders sharing the vehicle (netting them a lower fare, of course), and the conveyance would make several stops along the way. It's true that this might not offer door-to-door convenience, but apparently Uber et al have had success with getting their riders to walk short distances to catch their rides, so we know that it's a viable business model. I've been sitting on some of these ideas for years. Send me your VC contacts, I'd love to get in touch.
- taneq 8y ago
  If you expose the metal strip you could use it as a power rail for electric cars, too! Although that would leave your highways being potentially deadly to walk on... Edit: Also if you're using shaped wheels to guide the car along the road, I think we've just reinvented the tram.
  - tpxl 8y ago
    That's the point, this is a tram. Autonomous electric mini-trains would be far better than whatever we have today and will have in the near future.
- icebraining 8y ago
  I quite like trams (especially those from my home town[1]), but there's nothing simple about installing a continuous metal strip on every road. They were replacing an intersection of tram lines near where I lived in Brussels, and it took them over six months for the whole process, with tremendous disruption for the whole area. [1] https://www.lisbonlux.com/images/transportation/rua-augusto-rosa.jpg https://www.lisbonlux.com/images/transportation/rua-augusto-... https://st.depositphotos.com/1000848/4380/i/950/depositphotos_43804127-stock-photo-interior-of-an-old-lisbon.jpg https://st.depositphotos.com/1000848/4380/i/950/depositphoto...

Theodores 8y ago

Here is a classic clip from the 1970's as to where the future was going to be: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ATNdGVpH8A https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ATNdGVpH8A Wires under the road to message drivers and roadside transmitters never caught on but a lot could be done with very basic electronics.

chippy 8y ago

"Researchers Mount Successful Attack on Navigational Wires Buried Under Roads Using Commonly Found Garden Implements"

code_duck 8y ago
No more than likely that’s attacks on fiber optic cables near roadways. Anyhow, I think the plan is to put it beneath the road surface.
Kadin 8y ago
If you're fine with physically digging up roads in order to cause car crashes, you can do that regardless of whether the vehicles on them are autonomous or not...