7 ms·

Sir, can you help me with this?

98 points by sprout 16y ago

rottencupcakes 16y ago
As interesting as it is that he concludes that he "can’t deny that testosterone has changed [his] behavior," I can't help but wonder how much of that personality change was due to his own gender stereotypes, societal expectations and generally just feeling like a man. I've heard very similar things from pre-op transsexuals who aren't on hormones and are just dressing the part. Dressing like a man makes you feel like a man in much the same way wearing a suit instead of sweatpants reflects on your behavior, poise and how other people interpret you.
- lwhi 16y ago
  But then, I think gender stereotypes and social expectations shape the the way all men function. I'd imagine that in this particular circumstance, without testosterone, being accepted as a man would be far more difficult for the author - because the physical changes wouldn't have occurred.
  - stavrianos 16y ago
    I have the belief, largely anecdotal, that transgendered people tend to adhere to stereotyped gender roles rather more than people in general.
    - Psyonic 16y ago
      Just me speculating here, but it makes sense to me that it would be that way. Men who are born men don't really worry about being "convincing," as they've never doubted it. They may worry about appearing homesexual, but that's still different than worrying about appearing female.
    - lwhi 16y ago
      That could be so, but then - perhaps short men adhere to stereotyped gender roles more than people in general too? I think adherence to these rules relates to the way people counter perceived feeling of inadequacy.
- lsc 16y ago
  eh, I don't know. I think testosterone does alter feelings and behavior in fairly shocking ways, far beyond what you see when you dress differently. Do you remember puberty? I went through puberty later than most of my peers, as far as I can tell (I didn't get shoulders until I was well out of high school, and the shoulders corresponded with developing a sex drive and other feelings one associates with puberty. Now, I don't know if it was a coincidence or not, but this was also around the time that I started eating meat.) And yeah, the aggression was pretty shocking at first. I can remember feeling like the hulk. "my god, I'm huge!" I'd break things by accident because I was stronger than I expected. by that time, I considered myself an adult with a job and I was surrounded by people who were forty plus years old, so I didn't actually pick fights with people, but I'd be lying if I said I didn't want to. As far as I can tell, this isn't particularly unusual for young men (except, maybe, for the timing)
ellyagg 16y ago
Although I expect this will be downvoted for being insensitive (unless the reverse psychology of saying so prevents it), I'm going to call bs on this person's experiences. In fact, it sounds more like what a woman planning to "transition" or who has transitioned toward being a man would fantasize things are like. I'm an all-American looking US male, approachable and probably in the 90th percentile with regard to looks, and woman (especially flirtatious, pouty ones) do not ask me for mechanical or technical advice unless they specifically know that I'm a programmer. Neither do men. The people that DO know me know not to ask for mechanical help or advice because they know that I'm not mechanically inclined. If it were true that people who knew him as a woman started asking him for mechanical help because he became a man, even though they knew he wasn't mechanically inclined, then people who know me would behave the same, regardless of past information, and that doesn't happen.
- TGJ 16y ago
  If you take into account bone structure and facial recognition, he/she might be more approachable by women for having a friendlier face.
  - joshzayin 16y ago
    FYI, the correct pronoun to use here would be "he," as Mr. Forrister identifies as male, not female.
    - TGJ 16y ago
      I'm sorry but I simply do not agree and I doubt this is the place to delve any further.
      - jackowayed 16y ago
        You don't agree with referring to people as the gender that they consider themselves? There's a lot of people out there that don't like their first names, so they go by their middle names. I don't see how calling a female-to-male transgendered person "she" or "he/she" is any different from calling someone that prefers their middle name by their first name. In both cases, you're shoehorning them into a way of identifying themselves that works fine for most people (Most people go by their first names; most people go by the gender they were biologically born as.) but does not work for them. In both cases you're being an asshole.
edw519 16y ago
I size other guys up, thinking, Yeah, I could take him. As a lifelong nerdy ectomorph, I have never felt this way. With me its been more like, "Yeah, I could launch that MVP faster than him."
- mian2zi3 16y ago
  Bubble sort? You just got your ass kicked.
- deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]
araneae 16y ago
Alternate explanation: he was asked to help because she thought he'd be the most willing to assist her, the tantalizing but remote possibility of sex hanging over his head...
johngalt 16y ago
Since the author is new to being a man, here's some advice: The reason the girl in the computer lab asked you wasn't because she thought you had any exceptional skill, or that none of the women in the lab could help. You were judged the only one supceptible to her charms. They will either act cute/helpless, sexy/flirty, or they'll issue a challenge ("are you good at this? Do you know how to help with this?").
- starpilot 16y ago
  That's pretty much what the author describes, actually.
  - nandemo 16y ago
    He mentions the flirty instance but seems to be pretty oblivious to the phenomenon described by johngalt: >She has every confidence that I, the only male in the room, can solve her printer problem. (...) I am still the same person inside, with the same skills and abilities as before, but society’s expectations have dramatically changed based on my new gender.
GFischer 16y ago
Reminds me of this article about a scientist that underwent a sex change: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/12/AR2006071201883.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07... From the article: "After he underwent a sex change nine years ago at the age of 42, Barres recalled, another scientist who was unaware of it was heard to say, "Ben Barres gave a great seminar today, but then his work is much better than his sister's.""
ErrantX 16y ago
I found this quote quite telling: I size other guys up, thinking, Yeah, I could take him. I think this helps explain Tom's experience, because that is a very "hollywood" view of how the male psyche works. I'm sure a portion of men think like that, but I'd posit not as many of us as some might expect. So Tom has this fantasy of what it is like to be a strong, assertive, aggressive male. In my experience, though, such men (my second best friend is like this) often tend to be extremely sensitive and vulnerable. Whereas from my observation some of the sugar-sweet women I know can be whiplash when they need to be. Which goes to show there is a lot more to this gender lark than meets the eye. I think there is some expectation bias in Toms experience, he will notice these incidents a lot more. But I don't think this is a general observation of society, for example as a straight 23 year old male I am pretty much the go to guy in my friendship group when you feel a bit lousy and need some sympathy. I'm sure there is still some bias, held over from the past century (even the past decade), especially in the realm of computers. But I think it is decreasing rapidly over the generations.

98 points by sprout 16y ago

As interesting as it is that he concludes that he "can’t deny that testosterone has changed [his] behavior," I can't help but wonder how much of that personality change was due to his own gender stereotypes, societal expectations and generally just feeling like a man. I've heard very similar things from pre-op transsexuals who aren't on hormones and are just dressing the part. Dressing like a man makes you feel like a man in much the same way wearing a suit instead of sweatpants reflects on your behavior, poise and how other people interpret you.

lwhi 16y ago
But then, I think gender stereotypes and social expectations shape the the way all men function. I'd imagine that in this particular circumstance, without testosterone, being accepted as a man would be far more difficult for the author - because the physical changes wouldn't have occurred.
- stavrianos 16y ago
  I have the belief, largely anecdotal, that transgendered people tend to adhere to stereotyped gender roles rather more than people in general.
  - Psyonic 16y ago
    Just me speculating here, but it makes sense to me that it would be that way. Men who are born men don't really worry about being "convincing," as they've never doubted it. They may worry about appearing homesexual, but that's still different than worrying about appearing female.
  - lwhi 16y ago
    That could be so, but then - perhaps short men adhere to stereotyped gender roles more than people in general too? I think adherence to these rules relates to the way people counter perceived feeling of inadequacy.
lsc 16y ago
eh, I don't know. I think testosterone does alter feelings and behavior in fairly shocking ways, far beyond what you see when you dress differently. Do you remember puberty? I went through puberty later than most of my peers, as far as I can tell (I didn't get shoulders until I was well out of high school, and the shoulders corresponded with developing a sex drive and other feelings one associates with puberty. Now, I don't know if it was a coincidence or not, but this was also around the time that I started eating meat.) And yeah, the aggression was pretty shocking at first. I can remember feeling like the hulk. "my god, I'm huge!" I'd break things by accident because I was stronger than I expected. by that time, I considered myself an adult with a job and I was surrounded by people who were forty plus years old, so I didn't actually pick fights with people, but I'd be lying if I said I didn't want to. As far as I can tell, this isn't particularly unusual for young men (except, maybe, for the timing)

ellyagg 16y ago

Although I expect this will be downvoted for being insensitive (unless the reverse psychology of saying so prevents it), I'm going to call bs on this person's experiences. In fact, it sounds more like what a woman planning to "transition" or who has transitioned toward being a man would fantasize things are like. I'm an all-American looking US male, approachable and probably in the 90th percentile with regard to looks, and woman (especially flirtatious, pouty ones) do not ask me for mechanical or technical advice unless they specifically know that I'm a programmer. Neither do men. The people that DO know me know not to ask for mechanical help or advice because they know that I'm not mechanically inclined. If it were true that people who knew him as a woman started asking him for mechanical help because he became a man, even though they knew he wasn't mechanically inclined, then people who know me would behave the same, regardless of past information, and that doesn't happen.

TGJ 16y ago
If you take into account bone structure and facial recognition, he/she might be more approachable by women for having a friendlier face.
- joshzayin 16y ago
  FYI, the correct pronoun to use here would be "he," as Mr. Forrister identifies as male, not female.
  - TGJ 16y ago
    I'm sorry but I simply do not agree and I doubt this is the place to delve any further.
    - jackowayed 16y ago
      You don't agree with referring to people as the gender that they consider themselves? There's a lot of people out there that don't like their first names, so they go by their middle names. I don't see how calling a female-to-male transgendered person "she" or "he/she" is any different from calling someone that prefers their middle name by their first name. In both cases, you're shoehorning them into a way of identifying themselves that works fine for most people (Most people go by their first names; most people go by the gender they were biologically born as.) but does not work for them. In both cases you're being an asshole.

edw519 16y ago

I size other guys up, thinking, Yeah, I could take him. As a lifelong nerdy ectomorph, I have never felt this way. With me its been more like, "Yeah, I could launch that MVP faster than him."

mian2zi3 16y ago
Bubble sort? You just got your ass kicked.
deleted 16y ago
[deleted]

araneae 16y ago

Alternate explanation: he was asked to help because she thought he'd be the most willing to assist her, the tantalizing but remote possibility of sex hanging over his head...

johngalt 16y ago

Since the author is new to being a man, here's some advice: The reason the girl in the computer lab asked you wasn't because she thought you had any exceptional skill, or that none of the women in the lab could help. You were judged the only one supceptible to her charms. They will either act cute/helpless, sexy/flirty, or they'll issue a challenge ("are you good at this? Do you know how to help with this?").

starpilot 16y ago
That's pretty much what the author describes, actually.
- nandemo 16y ago
  He mentions the flirty instance but seems to be pretty oblivious to the phenomenon described by johngalt: >She has every confidence that I, the only male in the room, can solve her printer problem. (...) I am still the same person inside, with the same skills and abilities as before, but society’s expectations have dramatically changed based on my new gender.

GFischer 16y ago

Reminds me of this article about a scientist that underwent a sex change: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/12/AR2006071201883.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07... From the article: "After he underwent a sex change nine years ago at the age of 42, Barres recalled, another scientist who was unaware of it was heard to say, "Ben Barres gave a great seminar today, but then his work is much better than his sister's.""

ErrantX 16y ago

I found this quote quite telling: I size other guys up, thinking, Yeah, I could take him. I think this helps explain Tom's experience, because that is a very "hollywood" view of how the male psyche works. I'm sure a portion of men think like that, but I'd posit not as many of us as some might expect. So Tom has this fantasy of what it is like to be a strong, assertive, aggressive male. In my experience, though, such men (my second best friend is like this) often tend to be extremely sensitive and vulnerable. Whereas from my observation some of the sugar-sweet women I know can be whiplash when they need to be. Which goes to show there is a lot more to this gender lark than meets the eye. I think there is some expectation bias in Toms experience, he will notice these incidents a lot more. But I don't think this is a general observation of society, for example as a straight 23 year old male I am pretty much the go to guy in my friendship group when you feel a bit lousy and need some sympathy. I'm sure there is still some bias, held over from the past century (even the past decade), especially in the realm of computers. But I think it is decreasing rapidly over the generations.