4 ms·

Didn't mean to bash the lang design team at all, actually i was kinda hoping for you folks to reply interesting and tricky stuff about how things are not so sim

Didn't mean to bash the lang design team at all, actually i was kinda hoping for you folks to reply interesting and tricky stuff about how things are not so simple. This is probably only because you didn't develop the answer fully but i still struggle to see how monads (or other structures in that family) couldn't apply here: they aren't implemented in any way and just provide interface (eg not caring about rust at all, the semantic of that feature here is very monadic, it should mostly behave like the CPS monad). Anyway, i'm gonna stop arguing, look at how it is/will be implemented and hopefully wait for that essay of yours, to have a broader picture.

withoutboats 8y ago
Here are three problems: Higher kinded polymorphism results in trivially undecidable type inferences without something like currying; the restrictions needed to support it would be arbitrary and weird given that Rust does not have currying (essentially some rules to reconstruct the restrictions of currying in type operator context). Instances of both Future and Iterator do not implement the Monad type class as defined in Haskell, because the "fmap" operator does not return the "self" type parameterized by a new type, it returns it own new type. This is because the state machine they represent is leaked through their function signature. Do notation doesn't work with the imperative control flow that Rust has, which other people have already discussed.
- runT1ME 8y ago
  You don't need HKTs to implement 'do' notation. A good example is LINQ query syntax from C#! You actually have full blown monadic comprehension that you can use to easily write 'flattened' (ie, no async pyramid of doom) Future/Promise code with.
  - snuxoll 8y ago
    A better example would be computation expressions in F#, the async {} and query {} builders are super easy to work with and don't rely on HKT's to work (since there's no such thing in .Net). I think such a design would work pretty well in rust, and doesn't require adding a bunch of single-purpose keywords - something I wish the C#/.Net team did considering F# had async first.
    - steveklabnik 8y ago
      async blocks require keyword in rust because it conflicts with a struct constructor.
      - snuxoll 8y ago
        F# works around this by having expression builders be normal types, `async` is just an alias for Control.AsyncBuilder (actually, it's an instance of it if I want to be technical), it's not even a reserved word in the language specification. This is why I feel such an implementation would be a great fit for Rust, the parser already has to figure out different contexts curly braces could be used (struct initializers, lexical scoping constructs, closures, the list goes on) - you can avoid adding an extra reserved keywords and get support for more than just async expressions.
        runT1ME 8y ago
        Async is strictly more limited than the more generic LINQ comprehension syntax.
        Horusiath 8y ago
        Actually in F# computation expressions are way more powerful, as they can define their own "keywords" within given semantics. This is for example, how `query{}` computation expression works - and unlike linq it can support things like left joins natively just because entire sql-like syntax is defined by library, not hardcoded into language. Same for async, yield generators etc.

withoutboats 8y ago

Here are three problems: Higher kinded polymorphism results in trivially undecidable type inferences without something like currying; the restrictions needed to support it would be arbitrary and weird given that Rust does not have currying (essentially some rules to reconstruct the restrictions of currying in type operator context). Instances of both Future and Iterator do not implement the Monad type class as defined in Haskell, because the "fmap" operator does not return the "self" type parameterized by a new type, it returns it own new type. This is because the state machine they represent is leaked through their function signature. Do notation doesn't work with the imperative control flow that Rust has, which other people have already discussed.

runT1ME 8y ago
You don't need HKTs to implement 'do' notation. A good example is LINQ query syntax from C#! You actually have full blown monadic comprehension that you can use to easily write 'flattened' (ie, no async pyramid of doom) Future/Promise code with.
- snuxoll 8y ago
  A better example would be computation expressions in F#, the async {} and query {} builders are super easy to work with and don't rely on HKT's to work (since there's no such thing in .Net). I think such a design would work pretty well in rust, and doesn't require adding a bunch of single-purpose keywords - something I wish the C#/.Net team did considering F# had async first.
  - steveklabnik 8y ago
    async blocks require keyword in rust because it conflicts with a struct constructor.
    - snuxoll 8y ago
      F# works around this by having expression builders be normal types, `async` is just an alias for Control.AsyncBuilder (actually, it's an instance of it if I want to be technical), it's not even a reserved word in the language specification. This is why I feel such an implementation would be a great fit for Rust, the parser already has to figure out different contexts curly braces could be used (struct initializers, lexical scoping constructs, closures, the list goes on) - you can avoid adding an extra reserved keywords and get support for more than just async expressions.
      - runT1ME 8y ago
        Async is strictly more limited than the more generic LINQ comprehension syntax.
        Horusiath 8y ago
        Actually in F# computation expressions are way more powerful, as they can define their own "keywords" within given semantics. This is for example, how `query{}` computation expression works - and unlike linq it can support things like left joins natively just because entire sql-like syntax is defined by library, not hardcoded into language. Same for async, yield generators etc.