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Thing is, what's the alternative? We're just lucky the plan they went with actually worked - strap the kids in tightly to a semi-enclosed stretcher with lots o

Thing is, what's the alternative? We're just lucky the plan they went with actually worked - strap the kids in tightly to a semi-enclosed stretcher with lots of anti-anxiety drugs and a positive pressure facemask. AFAIK rescuing people from a cave underwater who aren't already divers has never been done before at all, and I've heard of a few cases where similar rescues have failed with the deaths of the victims (e.g. someone getting stuck in tidal mud flats where a diver tried using a full face mask to keep them alive until the morning - they panicked, lost the mask, and died). Lots of things like the kids being in worse health than they were, or the combo of drugs and bravery/meditation not being enough could have made that plan fail. Just keeping those kids alive already killed one diver due to an accident - if the plan had failed even just resupplying them until conditions improved could have easily killed more given the bad conditions. Also remember that the rescue was willing and able to modify the cave with drilling (and even blasting) to make passages wider and easier to navigate (there's public footage of the rescuers doing this). This is an aspect of cave rescue that can be controversial and isn't often talked about, but I think it's totally justified here, and could have easily reduced the risk of the thing getting stuck (which happens to patients^H^H^H bodies too...). Unfortunately this was a really bad situation without a guaranteed good outcome.

jmts 8y ago
Clearly, the alternative is to use a stretcher. I was exposed to vertical and (dry) cave rescue practices via my father for most of my upbringing. Every exercise I ever saw performed involved strapping a person into a stretcher and using multiple people to maneuver them to safety. This is the method they train, and this is the method they know. I have no doubt this is the method of choice for more good reasons than I can possibly think of. Now let's add cave diving to the mix, one of the most dangerous pastimes you can take part in. This is a situation where the most boring solution is the best solution. The fewer unknowns the better. These people have a background in rescue already, so they know their way around a stretcher. They have a background in diving, so they know their way around a mask. Dr Richard Harris, one of the divers involved is an anaesthetist, so he knows his way around sedating people. They've got this covered. Every person there already has experience doing what they're doing. To introduce a (relatively) large, heavy, untested piece of apparatus with which nobody has any experience working with to an already risky operation with a high chance of fatality is just ridiculous. Good on Musk for thinking about the problem and looking for a solution, but anybody claiming to know better than the people who actually pulled this off without any fancy contraptions is in need of a reality check.
- petertodd 8y ago
  > Clearly, the alternative is to use a stretcher. edit: To be clear, I'm talking about what's the alternative if the stretcher doesn't work? That was a major risk. If I were in there position, I'd strongly consider a stretcher too. But I'd feel much better knowing there was a backup plan. > I have no doubt this is the method of choice for more good reasons than I can possibly think of. Indeed it is. But all those rescues were performed above the water, in breathable air. Adding water to that mix is a huge change. Heck, I know someone who was involved in a rescue from a very wet cave with a significant river flowing through it that was flooding. They said one of the hardest parts of the rescue was keeping the victim in a stretcher out of the water so they wouldn't drown. Yes, the sub was untested and nobody had any experience with it. But rescuing untrained victims with a mask was also untested and nobody had any experience doing it. I'm sure that uncertainty is why Musk was asked by Richard Stanton - one of the two divers who found the kids in the first place - to keep working on it. Incidentally, by caving standards all dive gear is a "fancy contraption" - dive gear is notoriously fragile by caving standards.
  - mustacheemperor 8y ago
    >Musk was asked by Richard Stanton - one of the two divers who found the kids in the first place - to keep working on it. Returning to the points made above, it shows incredible hubris that Musk demanded any attention to his project from the already overtaxed rescue operators. What else was Richard going to tell him? Imagine if one of these kids had died and the divers had pulled the plug on the miracle sub. He's already this upset they didn't use it after a successful rescue, imagine his reaction if he was asked to desist upon arriving.
9935c101ab17a66 8y ago
Claiming the outcome was the result of 'luck' and then proceeding to outline all the challenges the plan addressed is pretty hilarious.

jmts 8y ago

Clearly, the alternative is to use a stretcher. I was exposed to vertical and (dry) cave rescue practices via my father for most of my upbringing. Every exercise I ever saw performed involved strapping a person into a stretcher and using multiple people to maneuver them to safety. This is the method they train, and this is the method they know. I have no doubt this is the method of choice for more good reasons than I can possibly think of. Now let's add cave diving to the mix, one of the most dangerous pastimes you can take part in. This is a situation where the most boring solution is the best solution. The fewer unknowns the better. These people have a background in rescue already, so they know their way around a stretcher. They have a background in diving, so they know their way around a mask. Dr Richard Harris, one of the divers involved is an anaesthetist, so he knows his way around sedating people. They've got this covered. Every person there already has experience doing what they're doing. To introduce a (relatively) large, heavy, untested piece of apparatus with which nobody has any experience working with to an already risky operation with a high chance of fatality is just ridiculous. Good on Musk for thinking about the problem and looking for a solution, but anybody claiming to know better than the people who actually pulled this off without any fancy contraptions is in need of a reality check.

petertodd 8y ago
> Clearly, the alternative is to use a stretcher. edit: To be clear, I'm talking about what's the alternative if the stretcher doesn't work? That was a major risk. If I were in there position, I'd strongly consider a stretcher too. But I'd feel much better knowing there was a backup plan. > I have no doubt this is the method of choice for more good reasons than I can possibly think of. Indeed it is. But all those rescues were performed above the water, in breathable air. Adding water to that mix is a huge change. Heck, I know someone who was involved in a rescue from a very wet cave with a significant river flowing through it that was flooding. They said one of the hardest parts of the rescue was keeping the victim in a stretcher out of the water so they wouldn't drown. Yes, the sub was untested and nobody had any experience with it. But rescuing untrained victims with a mask was also untested and nobody had any experience doing it. I'm sure that uncertainty is why Musk was asked by Richard Stanton - one of the two divers who found the kids in the first place - to keep working on it. Incidentally, by caving standards all dive gear is a "fancy contraption" - dive gear is notoriously fragile by caving standards.
- mustacheemperor 8y ago
  >Musk was asked by Richard Stanton - one of the two divers who found the kids in the first place - to keep working on it. Returning to the points made above, it shows incredible hubris that Musk demanded any attention to his project from the already overtaxed rescue operators. What else was Richard going to tell him? Imagine if one of these kids had died and the divers had pulled the plug on the miracle sub. He's already this upset they didn't use it after a successful rescue, imagine his reaction if he was asked to desist upon arriving.

9935c101ab17a66 8y ago

Claiming the outcome was the result of 'luck' and then proceeding to outline all the challenges the plan addressed is pretty hilarious.