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I do think that slower transportation helps. Cyclists tend to be more patient than drivers, based on my (biased) observations. As a transportation cyclist I do

I do think that slower transportation helps. Cyclists tend to be more patient than drivers, based on my (biased) observations. As a transportation cyclist I don't really understand the mindset of many drivers. Their apparent need for instant transportation seems to override safety concerns, particularly the safety of others. Often drivers aren't much faster than I am, particularly given the number of stop lights on my commute. Many cyclists have pointed out the irony in how a dangerous driver who nearly runs over a cyclist often sits at the next stop light with the same cyclist stopped right behind them. My guess is that cyclists are more patient due to both selection effects (more patient people are more likely to become cyclists) and driving actively decreasing patience.

Klover 8y ago
Would the fact that they're in a protected box not have more to do with the reduced concern for the safety of others that you observe?
- btrettel 8y ago
  Yes, there are many factors, unfortunately. "Being in a box" can't explain as much as I'd like. Many drivers seem to freak out if you touch their vehicles, even if there's no damage. They clearly don't want their cars damaged either. Another major possibility is that they don't think they are driving dangerously at all. Having talked to many drivers over the years, I'm amazed by what people have claimed is perfectly safe to me. (The worst was the guy who passed me too close on an uphill part of the road. I honked at him and he stopped to talk to me. You couldn't see beyond the top of the hill and he was splitting the lanes. Yet he claimed this was perfectly safe.)
agumonkey 8y ago
Some things I have in mind: - fuel cost - disgust for changing driving states (stopping/redlight) - some social relativism (I'm paying attention and optimizing my driving for me and others, you MUST do too) - bubble effect: being in closed space makes me believe it's a bit like internet comments, people just boil up freely - maybe the bliss of speed More generally something that gets done for you makes you irrascible faster when it doesn't happen. My slow transporation point was larger though, as said beside, it's our relationship with space and time. We're maximizing some forms of 'pleasure' when in fact, it's all around us, you just have to walk out and pay attention.
JetSpiegel 8y ago
> Many cyclists have pointed out the irony in how a dangerous driver who nearly runs over a cyclist often sits at the next stop light with the same cyclist stopped right behind them. This happens to me when I walk to the subway, but I overtake the cars in the sidewalk.
- agumonkey 8y ago
  in dense urban areas it's so common.. between buses and traffic light you waste so much time, then add the time to find a parking spot .. nowadays I tend not to care about that, I avoid 'fast' segments, and go diagonal in small streets, then park in cozy areas 1 mile before my destination. I get mind free trip, free parking, a little walk and no time wasted.
  - AlexCoventry 8y ago
    I meet so many people who drive all the way downtown instead of saving themselves time, aggravation and money by stopping further out and taking the subway in. It's very strange.
    - agumonkey 8y ago
      distaste for state change, when you're in car mode you want to stay in there for as long as possible, often to the point of losing perspective
paulie_a 8y ago
I am honestly impressed by Chicago cyclists that will be going down their designated bright green lane. and very quickly stop and calmly tell the random tourist they nearly got run over. Drivers in Chicago basically are the worst I've ever seen. Cars should have a device that charges you 50 dollars every time you use the horn.
antod 8y ago
I feel that since I started commuting to work by bike about 10yrs ago, I became a much better driver. I'm more patient/tolerant of others on the road, and I pay more attention to what I'm doing and what's happening around me. I often wonder that if all drivers had to to spend one month per year commuting on a bike, how much the average standard of driving would improve.
- dionidium 8y ago
  In the U.S. nearly all cyclists are (at least occasional) drivers, too, but the reverse obviously isn't true. I think you're right to notice that this has a pretty big impact on what kinds of arguments get through to each group.
zlynx 8y ago
Ah, cyclists. I probably only notice the bad ones. I've seen too many who feel they are above all the petty traffic law automobiles must follow. Like stop signs and red lights. I wouldn't call them patient.
- andreareina 8y ago
  I used to be a cyclist. And while I was a cyclist, I used to think the same. Then I found out how some states have laws that allow cyclists to treat stop lights and stop signs as stop signs and yields respectively, and how helps a little bit to separate car traffic from cycling traffic. EDIT: but no, this thing about patience rings a bit false to me. Patient in the sense that I'm not in as much of a hurry to get where I'm going, yes. But stopping after having built up a nice head of speed, knowing that I'm going to have to expend more energy to get back up to speed...
  - zlynx 8y ago
    I'm surprised those laws exist. Running through red lights and stop signs looks like an excellent way to get killed. I certainly didn't expect it the last time I was going to turn right on red, with my signal on, and a cyclist ran the light going past me.
    - andreareina 8y ago
      Many's a time I sat waiting at an intersection with no cross traffic waiting for the light to change, those laws would just have enabled me to go on my way. The incident you describe has the cyclist in the wrong both legally (still need to actually stop at a light) and pragmatically -- when you're squishy and unarmored, being predictable is a very good thing.
vitaflo 8y ago
> Cyclists tend to be more patient than drivers Given the amount of cyclists I see blow thru red lights and stop signs every day, I'm not exactly sure I can agree with this.
- kcanini 8y ago
  When you have to generate your own kinetic energy, that's not due to a lack of patience as much as trying to minimize the amount of exertion you must do.
  - Godel_unicode 8y ago
    So breaking the law and endangering pedestrians is ok if it means you don't have to work as hard? As a pedestrian, I HATE cyclists. At least drivers seem to understand what a red light means. I've never been hit by a car, but I've been hit by plenty of bicycles who should have stopped at that pesky red light.
    - rimliu 8y ago
      I have to agree. While I have a good example from the country with a good cycling culture—I saw a cyclist standing at the crossing and patiently waiting for the green light at 2a.m. on the empty street—in my country cyclist are by far the ones with the least respect for the traffic rules. :(
    - btrettel 8y ago
      Let's be clear: you should dislike law breaking cyclists, not all cyclists. As a cyclist who does not run red lights, I dislike that many people seem to think I am responsible for and/or should be punished for the actions of cyclists who do run red lights. Plus, I suggest paying more attention to cars. The number of times I have seen drivers run red lights is definitely not zero.
      - kaybe 8y ago
        To be honest, some red lights are just pointless for cyclists. One example are pedestrian crossings with no pedestrian in sight, another are very small crossings (maybe even at night) where you can see anyone coming half a mile away, with nobody in sight. I also hate the one where you're supposed to wait 2 light cycles instead of 1 for turning left. That is a major road so people usually follow the rule, but it's not good. At the same time the city advocates doing that twice on both sides of the bridge so you can cross at the proper side on the shared sidewalk and not ride against the (often non-existent) flow on the other shared sidewalk. Of course people still do it.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
Godel_unicode 8y ago
> Cyclists tend to be more patient than drivers As someone who walks to work, I've had an order of magnitude more issues with cyclists than cars. My favorite, which happens frequently, is the cyclists who cross against the light then complain with one finger about pedestrians, with the light, in a cross walk. I've been hit in intersections several times. Always by cyclists, always when I (pedestrian) clearly have right of way.
- 7sigma 8y ago
  Depends on the infrastructure and education. In the UK, I regularly see cyclists do stupid things. When I go to Holland, everybody respects the red lights, but I guess that's because they have amazing cycling infrastructure and also cycling is part of school curriculum

Klover 8y ago

Would the fact that they're in a protected box not have more to do with the reduced concern for the safety of others that you observe?

btrettel 8y ago
Yes, there are many factors, unfortunately. "Being in a box" can't explain as much as I'd like. Many drivers seem to freak out if you touch their vehicles, even if there's no damage. They clearly don't want their cars damaged either. Another major possibility is that they don't think they are driving dangerously at all. Having talked to many drivers over the years, I'm amazed by what people have claimed is perfectly safe to me. (The worst was the guy who passed me too close on an uphill part of the road. I honked at him and he stopped to talk to me. You couldn't see beyond the top of the hill and he was splitting the lanes. Yet he claimed this was perfectly safe.)

agumonkey 8y ago

Some things I have in mind: - fuel cost - disgust for changing driving states (stopping/redlight) - some social relativism (I'm paying attention and optimizing my driving for me and others, you MUST do too) - bubble effect: being in closed space makes me believe it's a bit like internet comments, people just boil up freely - maybe the bliss of speed More generally something that gets done for you makes you irrascible faster when it doesn't happen. My slow transporation point was larger though, as said beside, it's our relationship with space and time. We're maximizing some forms of 'pleasure' when in fact, it's all around us, you just have to walk out and pay attention.

JetSpiegel 8y ago

> Many cyclists have pointed out the irony in how a dangerous driver who nearly runs over a cyclist often sits at the next stop light with the same cyclist stopped right behind them. This happens to me when I walk to the subway, but I overtake the cars in the sidewalk.

agumonkey 8y ago
in dense urban areas it's so common.. between buses and traffic light you waste so much time, then add the time to find a parking spot .. nowadays I tend not to care about that, I avoid 'fast' segments, and go diagonal in small streets, then park in cozy areas 1 mile before my destination. I get mind free trip, free parking, a little walk and no time wasted.
- AlexCoventry 8y ago
  I meet so many people who drive all the way downtown instead of saving themselves time, aggravation and money by stopping further out and taking the subway in. It's very strange.
  - agumonkey 8y ago
    distaste for state change, when you're in car mode you want to stay in there for as long as possible, often to the point of losing perspective

paulie_a 8y ago

I am honestly impressed by Chicago cyclists that will be going down their designated bright green lane. and very quickly stop and calmly tell the random tourist they nearly got run over. Drivers in Chicago basically are the worst I've ever seen. Cars should have a device that charges you 50 dollars every time you use the horn.

antod 8y ago

I feel that since I started commuting to work by bike about 10yrs ago, I became a much better driver. I'm more patient/tolerant of others on the road, and I pay more attention to what I'm doing and what's happening around me. I often wonder that if all drivers had to to spend one month per year commuting on a bike, how much the average standard of driving would improve.

dionidium 8y ago
In the U.S. nearly all cyclists are (at least occasional) drivers, too, but the reverse obviously isn't true. I think you're right to notice that this has a pretty big impact on what kinds of arguments get through to each group.

zlynx 8y ago

Ah, cyclists. I probably only notice the bad ones. I've seen too many who feel they are above all the petty traffic law automobiles must follow. Like stop signs and red lights. I wouldn't call them patient.

andreareina 8y ago
I used to be a cyclist. And while I was a cyclist, I used to think the same. Then I found out how some states have laws that allow cyclists to treat stop lights and stop signs as stop signs and yields respectively, and how helps a little bit to separate car traffic from cycling traffic. EDIT: but no, this thing about patience rings a bit false to me. Patient in the sense that I'm not in as much of a hurry to get where I'm going, yes. But stopping after having built up a nice head of speed, knowing that I'm going to have to expend more energy to get back up to speed...
- zlynx 8y ago
  I'm surprised those laws exist. Running through red lights and stop signs looks like an excellent way to get killed. I certainly didn't expect it the last time I was going to turn right on red, with my signal on, and a cyclist ran the light going past me.
  - andreareina 8y ago
    Many's a time I sat waiting at an intersection with no cross traffic waiting for the light to change, those laws would just have enabled me to go on my way. The incident you describe has the cyclist in the wrong both legally (still need to actually stop at a light) and pragmatically -- when you're squishy and unarmored, being predictable is a very good thing.

vitaflo 8y ago

> Cyclists tend to be more patient than drivers Given the amount of cyclists I see blow thru red lights and stop signs every day, I'm not exactly sure I can agree with this.

kcanini 8y ago
When you have to generate your own kinetic energy, that's not due to a lack of patience as much as trying to minimize the amount of exertion you must do.
- Godel_unicode 8y ago
  So breaking the law and endangering pedestrians is ok if it means you don't have to work as hard? As a pedestrian, I HATE cyclists. At least drivers seem to understand what a red light means. I've never been hit by a car, but I've been hit by plenty of bicycles who should have stopped at that pesky red light.
  - rimliu 8y ago
    I have to agree. While I have a good example from the country with a good cycling culture—I saw a cyclist standing at the crossing and patiently waiting for the green light at 2a.m. on the empty street—in my country cyclist are by far the ones with the least respect for the traffic rules. :(
  - btrettel 8y ago
    Let's be clear: you should dislike law breaking cyclists, not all cyclists. As a cyclist who does not run red lights, I dislike that many people seem to think I am responsible for and/or should be punished for the actions of cyclists who do run red lights. Plus, I suggest paying more attention to cars. The number of times I have seen drivers run red lights is definitely not zero.
    - kaybe 8y ago
      To be honest, some red lights are just pointless for cyclists. One example are pedestrian crossings with no pedestrian in sight, another are very small crossings (maybe even at night) where you can see anyone coming half a mile away, with nobody in sight. I also hate the one where you're supposed to wait 2 light cycles instead of 1 for turning left. That is a major road so people usually follow the rule, but it's not good. At the same time the city advocates doing that twice on both sides of the bridge so you can cross at the proper side on the shared sidewalk and not ride against the (often non-existent) flow on the other shared sidewalk. Of course people still do it.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

Godel_unicode 8y ago

> Cyclists tend to be more patient than drivers As someone who walks to work, I've had an order of magnitude more issues with cyclists than cars. My favorite, which happens frequently, is the cyclists who cross against the light then complain with one finger about pedestrians, with the light, in a cross walk. I've been hit in intersections several times. Always by cyclists, always when I (pedestrian) clearly have right of way.

7sigma 8y ago
Depends on the infrastructure and education. In the UK, I regularly see cyclists do stupid things. When I go to Holland, everybody respects the red lights, but I guess that's because they have amazing cycling infrastructure and also cycling is part of school curriculum