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The Forgotten Soviet-Japanese War of 1939
- baybal2 8y agoA good read. Another popular hypothesis why Germans were so confident attacking USSR is the "Japanese unkept promise." It suggests that somebody in German supreme leadership was assured by Japanese diplomats that they will "surely will attack USSR," but personal opinions of their generals were moving orthogonal to their diplomatic efforts
- xeeeeeeeeeeenu 8y agoIn August 1941 it became clear to everyone that Japan has no intention to attack USSR, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Sorge#Wartime_intelligence_supplied_by_the_Sorge_Ring https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Sorge#Wartime_intellig...
- JadeNB 8y agoThis article comes after one a few days ago on "The influence of railways on military operations in the Russo–German war 1941–1945" (the article's title, not mine) (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17486415 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17486415). At the time I thought it was just because the intersection of programmers and railroad enthusiasts is high, but I wonder if it also indicates a hidden cache of WWII / Russian war history buffs? (Anyway, although I run the risk of the usual "it's whatever's interesting to hackers" retort by wondering about the place of this here, I don't complain! I think it's interesting, and certainly hadn't heard about the war.)
- Tharkun 8y agoAnother interesting one is the Battle of Tsushima of 1905, where the Japanese navy all but destroyed the Russian navy. This affected the power balance in Europe and ultimately contributed to the start of World War 1. It also gave the Japanese an incorrect impression of their military strength, which helped set them on a course to Russia again in 1939. edit: sausage fingers.
- icebraining 8y agoThe podcast History of the Twentieth Century[1] did five episodes on the Russo-Japanese war of 1905 (ep. 31 to 36). I fully recommend the whole show! [1] https://historyofthetwentiethcentury.com/ https://historyofthetwentiethcentury.com/
- lostconfused 8y agohttps://www.amazon.com/Clouds-above-Hill-Historical-Russo-Japanese/dp/1138858862 https://www.amazon.com/Clouds-above-Hill-Historical-Russo-Ja... A historical novel from Japan fully accounting the events leading up to and during the war. It was translated into English this decade.
- nine_k 8y agoGiven the amount of land the Japanese conquered by 1939, and the amount of resistance they faced, I don't see why their estimation from 1905 had been incorrect.
- beerlord 8y agoThere's a good book on the topic if you want more: https://www.amazon.com/Nomonhan-1939-Armys-Victory-Shaped-ebook/dp/B007WSNQBS/ref=tmm_kin_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=&sr= https://www.amazon.com/Nomonhan-1939-Armys-Victory-Shaped-eb...
- Bendingo 8y agoYes, this book is a very thorough and detailed account -- highly recommended.
- imbokodo 8y ago> The German-Soviet Non-Aggression Pact - the green light for Hitler's invasion of Poland and the outbreak of World War II How about the earlier Munich Pact where France and England handed Czechoslovakia over to Hitler? In my eyes, that was the "green light" for Hitler's imperial ambitions. Speaking of the Munich Pact - Stalin wanted to move Soviet troops through Poland to defend Czechoslovakia, but Poland refused passage. So if you're going to say the Ribbentrop Pact green lighted the invasion of Poland, you could say Poland green lighted the invasion of Czechoslovakia, which ultimately led to its own invasion. The Soviet Union wanted self-defense pacts with England, which were not given. The Soviet Union had a very weak one with France in 1935, which former UK PM David Lloyd George said justified Hitler's Rhineland militarization. Any how - Japan and the USSR staying at peace had an effect on WWII. From the time of the Pacific lend-lease, Russian flagged ships sailed from Vladivostok to Seattle and back, carrying needed supplies, unmolested by German submarines. The Soviet-Japanese Neutrality Pact was signed two months before Operation Barbarossa. Stalin went to the train station to see Foreign Minister Matsuoka off, which is something he never did. Obviously he saw it as crucial. So too did the Japanese probably, as it saw the western powers encircling it in 1941.
- macspoofing 8y ago>So if you're going to say the Ribbentrop Pact green lighted the invasion of Poland, you could say Poland green lighted the invasion of Czechoslovakia, which ultimately led to its own invasion. Wow. That's one interesting interpretation of history. Soviet Union presented an existential threat to Poland, a country that only gained independence from Russia (amongst others) post-WW1 and fought off an Bolshevik invasion a few years after. And with our 20/20 historical hindsight, it is only a few years later that the Soviet Union annexed the eastern half of Poland (which lead to mass murder of civilians and of course the Katyn massacre), and followed by 50 years as a Soviet vassal state ... but yeah, if only Poland had trusted Stalin's good-will. Honestly ...
- sbmthakur 8y agoPoles(at that time) had territorial ambitions wrt Czechoslovakia. So it isn't a surprise.
- Dramatize 8y agoDid you just listen to the latest Hardcore History?
- gok 8y agoThis misses a pretty key point that the western powers embargoed Japan right before the Nazis invaded the USSR. The “move North” strategy stopped being practical when they didn’t have a way to get oil for that invasion.
- rjsw 8y agoIronic that there was plenty of oil under Sakhalin island, it just hadn't been discovered yet. The North African campaign was similar in that it was partly an attempt to get to the Arabian oilfields, but fought over the top of at the time undiscovered Libyan ones.
- narrator 8y agoOne of the main reasons for the battle of Stalingrad was for Hitler to secure a route to the oil fields of Baku, Azerbaijan.
- nickik 8y agoThey actually didnt have a plan for Baku. That was way to far. However there were oil fields in Grozny and Maikop that was their actual goal. They actually almost got one of the cities but Fall Blau was a total desaster and the German spearheads were opposed by to many soviet troups.
- nickik 8y agoThere were basically no oil fields in Arab lands at that time. The oil back then came from the US, Soviet Union (Baku) and Persia.
- nine_k 8y agoSpeaking of oil, there was another forgotten war, when in 1941 both Soviet and British troops invaded Persia / Iran, secured the oil fields, and replaced the then-current Shakh with his son. Significant Soviet forces stayed in Iran until 1945, to prevent Germans from attempting to capture the oil fields.
- phobosdeimos 8y agoThis war accomplished 2 things: Japan decided to turn their attention to the Navy and attacking Americ. The Soviet Union didn't have to fight a war on two fronts thus beating Germany. What wars and battles are remembered rarely reflects their importance.
- nickik 8y agoThrewout the whole fight with German the Soviet Union had enough troupes in the East to fight Japan. Japan had some great divisions and a great navy, but going up against the Soviet Union in 1941 would not seen them defeated. So this "if Japan jad attacked the Soviet would change everything" meme is mostly wrong but every couple of years it comes back because somebody that doesnt know the history well digs it up. The reason Japan did atrack was because they knew they had no chance.
- m_mueller 8y agoI had the impression that the Soviets were forced to pull troops from the East to the West in 1941, enough so that a combined German/Japanese attack would have likely succeeded in one of the fronts.
- phobosdeimos 8y agoZhukov himself was in Siberia when the Germans invaded. Being able to redeploy troops equiped with full winter gear and combat experience saved Russia in my opinion.
- nickik 8y agoThey did pull some troupes, but they still had a huge number of troupes in the East. Given the limits of the Imperial Japanese Army in that theater (logistics, modern mobile army) it is hard to image how they could have made significant progress. Specifically after they had totally lost in 1939.
- unclebucknasty 8y agoNot too dissimilar from The Unnoticed American-Russian War of 2015-2018.
- JadeNB 8y agoExcept that it's completely different …? This was an actual 'hot' war, with soldiers firing weapons in the field.
- unclebucknasty 8y agoYeah, I didn't mean that literally. Sorry if that wasn't obvious. Just pointing out the irony of these historical references while there is near zero interest here in what is clear and present. But, you know, carry on with the downvotes and confusion.
- nickik 8y agoJesus. Stop acting like a little child.
- lionhearted 8y agoYeah, this was a lot more important than most people realize. I wrote about it here, in the context of Zhukov's rise as a general and what he'd later do on the Eastern Front after Hitler invaded — https://medium.com/the-strategic-review/background-ops-5-the-nature-of-operations-eb8555059e48 https://medium.com/the-strategic-review/background-ops-5-the... Incidentally, Zhukov's Autobiography is extremely insightful and the uncensored version has only been out in English for ~20 years now: https://www.amazon.com/Marshal-Victory-Autobiography-General-Georgy/dp/1781592918 https://www.amazon.com/Marshal-Victory-Autobiography-General...
- audiometry 8y agoToday I see a new episode of Dan Carlin 'Hardcore History' that specifically covers this time in Japan/Russia/China history.