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Reading this, it occurs to me that designers probably had little to no input into the creation of HTML and CSS. In other words, everyone struggles with this for

Reading this, it occurs to me that designers probably had little to no input into the creation of HTML and CSS. In other words, everyone struggles with this format today because the creators didn't pay attention to a group of users that would turn out to be very large. I guess hindsight is 20/20. There are many drivers towards HTML5/CSS3, but at least one of them is meeting the needs of designers, so obviously this is in the process of being corrected. Like most people, I've been pretty anti-IE, but someone pointed out to me that HTML5 actually standardizes a lot of features that Microsoft implemented years ago - shadows, gradients, glows, embeddable fonts, opacity, etc. Vector graphics? Microsoft: VML in IE5, 1999. Mozilla: SVG in Firefox 1.5, 2005. Maybe if open source and standards-based browser developers had taken the lead in supporting designers' needs, they could have overtaken IE years ago.

pornel 16y ago
> HTML5 actually standardizes a lot of features that Microsoft implemented years ago - shadows, gradients, glows, embeddable fonts, opacity, etc Embeddable fonts are CSS, which is orhogonal to HTML5. Shadows and gradients are in <canvas> 2D context, but the well-known ones are also CSS properties, not HTML5. SVG is based on VML. Microsoft proposed it to W3C (http://www.w3.org/TR/NOTE-VML http://www.w3.org/TR/NOTE-VML), and W3C developed it further until it became SVG. Microsoft's shadows, gradients and opactiy were based on DirectX filters with own horrible syntax, that didn't even tokenize according to CSS syntax. It couldn't be accepted in original form. Current syntax has been mostly invented by Apple (but gradients have been deemed too ugly as well, and spec went with Mozilla's syntax). Microsoft's APIs may have been first, but they're not pretty. PPK calls IE-derived drag'n'drop API a "fucking disaster": http://www.quirksmode.org/blog/archives/2009/09/the_html5_drag.html http://www.quirksmode.org/blog/archives/2009/09/the_html5_dr... Sadly, lots of Microsoft's and Netscape's Browser War-era inventions are in HTML5 only because lots/high-profile websites rely on them.
- alsomike 16y ago
  I'm not saying they did a good job, implementation wise. But isn't it a shame that I have to thank Microsoft for helping out designers instead of the browser standards people?
  - deleted 16y ago
    [deleted]
  - olavk 16y ago
    Well CSS was invented by "browser standards people" to make design easier and more powerful. (Blame browser bugs and incompatibilities for making them more difficult than necessary to use.) Microsofts inventions (Ajax, drag-drop, contentEditable) were more targeted towards application development than design.
    - alsomike 16y ago
      Maybe you're misunderstanding - many of the new CSS3 properties that make life easier for designers implement features that IE has had since IE6 and even earlier. Standards-compliant browser developers are only catching up now.
- noibl 16y ago
  > SVG is based on VML. Microsoft proposed it to W3C (http://www.w3.org/TR/NOTE-VML http://www.w3.org/TR/NOTE-VML), and W3C developed it further until it became SVG. Not exactly. When Adobe and Netscape submitted PGML[1] for standardisation, Macromedia and Microsoft responded by submitting VML[2]. SVG was born as a synthesis of both, but the dominance of IE (which supported VML instead of SVG) and Flash (thanks to being bundled with Windows) meant that there were no decent authoring tools or meaningful browser support for SVG. Far from being a serious contribution to open standards, VML was a counter-offensive in the Browser Wars. [1] http://www.w3.org/TR/1998/NOTE-PGML-19980410 http://www.w3.org/TR/1998/NOTE-PGML-19980410 [2] http://www.w3.org/TR/1998/NOTE-VML-19980513 http://www.w3.org/TR/1998/NOTE-VML-19980513
mryall 16y ago
> Reading this, it occurs to me that designers probably had little to no input into the creation of HTML and CSS. You're right, and I think this makes sense given the history that Mark recounts. Originally, HTML was a format for marking up documents. I imagine there weren't many designers interested in improving a document markup language. Only in the last ten years, with HTML becoming a common way to build business websites and then full applications, has the widespread involvement of designers in building web pages become commonplace. When HTML and CSS were formulated in the 1990s, there weren't any "web designers" to speak of.
acdha 16y ago
Alternately, if Microsoft had consulted with designers and users, and been less hostile to the concept of standards those features would actually have been used. At the time, however, they were in full strangulation mode and things like directly porting truly horrid Windows APIs (all DirectX features, drag and drop, rich text editing, etc.) was considered a feature because it made it much harder for anyone else to implement those for a competing browser or platform. The Web basically lost a decade thanks to browser vendors, particularly Microsoft, trying lock-in games. The OSS browsers are the only thing which saved it since none of the old corporate players valued quality or performance as much as market-share (and, consequently, OS licenses or advertising).
noibl 16y ago
HTML5 was never about designers. It's all about functional interfaces for web applications. http://www.w3.org/2004/04/webapps-cdf-ws/papers/opera.html http://www.w3.org/2004/04/webapps-cdf-ws/papers/opera.html You won't find anything in there about facilitating graphic designers.

pornel 16y ago

> HTML5 actually standardizes a lot of features that Microsoft implemented years ago - shadows, gradients, glows, embeddable fonts, opacity, etc Embeddable fonts are CSS, which is orhogonal to HTML5. Shadows and gradients are in <canvas> 2D context, but the well-known ones are also CSS properties, not HTML5. SVG is based on VML. Microsoft proposed it to W3C (http://www.w3.org/TR/NOTE-VML http://www.w3.org/TR/NOTE-VML), and W3C developed it further until it became SVG. Microsoft's shadows, gradients and opactiy were based on DirectX filters with own horrible syntax, that didn't even tokenize according to CSS syntax. It couldn't be accepted in original form. Current syntax has been mostly invented by Apple (but gradients have been deemed too ugly as well, and spec went with Mozilla's syntax). Microsoft's APIs may have been first, but they're not pretty. PPK calls IE-derived drag'n'drop API a "fucking disaster": http://www.quirksmode.org/blog/archives/2009/09/the_html5_drag.html http://www.quirksmode.org/blog/archives/2009/09/the_html5_dr... Sadly, lots of Microsoft's and Netscape's Browser War-era inventions are in HTML5 only because lots/high-profile websites rely on them.

alsomike 16y ago
I'm not saying they did a good job, implementation wise. But isn't it a shame that I have to thank Microsoft for helping out designers instead of the browser standards people?
- deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]
- olavk 16y ago
  Well CSS was invented by "browser standards people" to make design easier and more powerful. (Blame browser bugs and incompatibilities for making them more difficult than necessary to use.) Microsofts inventions (Ajax, drag-drop, contentEditable) were more targeted towards application development than design.
  - alsomike 16y ago
    Maybe you're misunderstanding - many of the new CSS3 properties that make life easier for designers implement features that IE has had since IE6 and even earlier. Standards-compliant browser developers are only catching up now.
noibl 16y ago
> SVG is based on VML. Microsoft proposed it to W3C (http://www.w3.org/TR/NOTE-VML http://www.w3.org/TR/NOTE-VML), and W3C developed it further until it became SVG. Not exactly. When Adobe and Netscape submitted PGML[1] for standardisation, Macromedia and Microsoft responded by submitting VML[2]. SVG was born as a synthesis of both, but the dominance of IE (which supported VML instead of SVG) and Flash (thanks to being bundled with Windows) meant that there were no decent authoring tools or meaningful browser support for SVG. Far from being a serious contribution to open standards, VML was a counter-offensive in the Browser Wars. [1] http://www.w3.org/TR/1998/NOTE-PGML-19980410 http://www.w3.org/TR/1998/NOTE-PGML-19980410 [2] http://www.w3.org/TR/1998/NOTE-VML-19980513 http://www.w3.org/TR/1998/NOTE-VML-19980513

mryall 16y ago

> Reading this, it occurs to me that designers probably had little to no input into the creation of HTML and CSS. You're right, and I think this makes sense given the history that Mark recounts. Originally, HTML was a format for marking up documents. I imagine there weren't many designers interested in improving a document markup language. Only in the last ten years, with HTML becoming a common way to build business websites and then full applications, has the widespread involvement of designers in building web pages become commonplace. When HTML and CSS were formulated in the 1990s, there weren't any "web designers" to speak of.

acdha 16y ago

Alternately, if Microsoft had consulted with designers and users, and been less hostile to the concept of standards those features would actually have been used. At the time, however, they were in full strangulation mode and things like directly porting truly horrid Windows APIs (all DirectX features, drag and drop, rich text editing, etc.) was considered a feature because it made it much harder for anyone else to implement those for a competing browser or platform. The Web basically lost a decade thanks to browser vendors, particularly Microsoft, trying lock-in games. The OSS browsers are the only thing which saved it since none of the old corporate players valued quality or performance as much as market-share (and, consequently, OS licenses or advertising).

noibl 16y ago

HTML5 was never about designers. It's all about functional interfaces for web applications. http://www.w3.org/2004/04/webapps-cdf-ws/papers/opera.html http://www.w3.org/2004/04/webapps-cdf-ws/papers/opera.html You won't find anything in there about facilitating graphic designers.