6 ms·
"The profiling, system monitoring, and large project workflow tools are years ahead of anything that you can get off-Windows." It's patently false that the pro
by poet 16y ago
"The profiling, system monitoring, and large project workflow tools are years ahead of anything that you can get off-Windows."
It's patently false that the profiling and system monitoring tools you can get on Windows are years ahead of anything you can get on a different platform. In fact, it's the opposite [1, 2]. And I wont even get into the fact that we're still catching up to 30 year old Lisp machines in the areas of editor integration, debuggers, and code assistance.
[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DTrace http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DTrace
[2] http://valgrind.org/ http://valgrind.org/
- gaius 16y agoI don't think you've experienced the level of integration Visual Studio brings to this. DTrace and Valgrind are great but they would need to be seamlessly integrated into Eclipse to be comparable.
- poet 16y agoUh, I have access to GDB, Valgrind, and DTrace through Emacs (either through GUD or a separate mode). The integration is seamless enough for me, and if it wasn't, I could spend an hour writing an Emacs Lisp extension to fix it. This is classic FUD.
- gaius 16y agoI could spend an hour writing an Emacs Lisp extension to fix it That's real nice for you, but what VS does is bring it out-of-the-box to everyone. Way to miss the point.
- poet 16y agoAs I noted in my previous post, it's pretty much out-of-the-box for Emacs as well. But even if it wasn't, who cares? You're going to spend the next decade at least using your development tools. The smart thing to do is to pick the highest quality tools and spend the time to learn them. In no other creative or engineering profession is there this expectation that the most advanced tools are shrink wrapped together. Who gives a shit if you can buy paint together with your brushes? Just buy the best damn paint and brushes you can find, regardless of who sells them.
- gaius 16y agoI'm not arguing with you about what is the "best" development toolchain. FWIW I'm an Emacs user myself. But my point stands: if you do want the fully-integrated IDE experience, VS is state-of-the-art, there's nothing like it on any other platform. That is why I don't say "better" or "worse" I say "not comparable".
- gaius 16y agoIncidentally, you should check out a guy named Richard P Gabriel. His company made Energize, an Emacs-based IDE (in fact they were responsible for the Emacs/Xemacs schism). You may judge the interest in full IDEs in the Unix world from the fact that it no longer exists...
- borism 16y agoDTrace has Instruments.app on Mac. Valgrind has KDevelop on Linux.
- gaius 16y agoAgain, missing the point.
- Groxx 16y agoIn-application integration is necessary? Higher integration just means that your debugging task is modal instead of allowing you to edit your comments while the debugger is running. It also means your application eats up more memory and takes longer to launch. It also means you can't substitute it as easily for something different. I'll take my separation + hooks for launching any day over massive integration that means doing what you want is hard / impossible.
- kenjackson 16y agoActually you get both. I can edit comments while debugging and I can edit code that gets recompiled on the fly while debugging.
- Groxx 16y agoDepends on the language / framework. ASP.NET 2.0 with VB, for instance, does not. Furthermore, modifying a WebService doesn't inform the web server that it's been updated, so it keeps serving up old versions of your code. ie, even MS's own products don't play nicely with each other. But you're more stuck with them than you would be with something more atomic and disconnected.
- motters 16y agoYou can seamlessly integrate Valgrind into Eclipse. I've been doing it for the last few years.