5 ms·

I'd like to see the compounds used, dosages used, and the actual affects on biochemistry afterwards. I'd also like to know if the long term damage is mostly age

I'd like to see the compounds used, dosages used, and the actual affects on biochemistry afterwards. I'd also like to know if the long term damage is mostly age related since they did not have developed endocrine systems yet. This article isn't particularly scientific. I don't know a ton about most anabolic steroids (typically derivatives of testosterone) - but testosterone is known to be highly beneficial in dosages that bring a man up to around 700-900ng/dl. Aka, around the levels of a very healthy 20-something-year-old. This is well studied. There is a really well done study where they gave a large number of healthy men 500mg testosterone per week for I believe 12 weeks. That put them at about 2000-3000ng/dl, or three times a normal males levels. The results showed only one or two participants had a significant side affect and all participants recovered fine. Remember, anabolic androgenic steroid (AAS) just means a growth promoting "anabolic" male sex characteristic related "androgenic" molecule with 17 carbon atoms "steroid". Most people don't realize this, but testosterone IS an AAS. It's a bioidentical hormone. You probably think it's bad to take, because of bad media. But what do you think is in birth control? Most birth control is a pill full of estrogen and progesterone, two other bio-identical sex hormones. A large percentage of the female population in the USA is on birth control, and they don't seem to be dying any quicker from what a quick search shows.

throwawaymath 8y ago
In consideration of the confidence with which you're asserting your claims are "well-studied", I think you should cite some of the specific research you're thinking of. In particular, I don't find your arguments, "because of bad media" and "But what do you think is in birth control?" very convincing.
- CryoLogic 8y ago
  What birth control is made of: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_oral_contraceptive_pill https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_oral_contraceptive_pi... Affects of high dosage testosterone for short intervals in healthy young men: https://www.physiology.org/doi/full/10.1152/ajpendo.2001.281.6.E1172 https://www.physiology.org/doi/full/10.1152/ajpendo.2001.281... Testosterone levels and mortality rates: http://jaha.ahajournals.org/content/ahaoa/2/6/e000272.full.pdf http://jaha.ahajournals.org/content/ahaoa/2/6/e000272.full.p... There is plenty out there, you just have to look around
  - tptacek 8y ago
    That birth control pills contain hormones is not exactly a revelation. Another very common term for them is "hormonal contraception". They are not benign; their side effects can be pretty brutal, and they alter cancer risks (some forms increased, some decreased). (Some women are also prescribed hormonal contraceptive pills to mitigate problems like endometriosis.)
    - throwawaymath 8y ago
      For the side effects you're talking about, what are the relative and absolute increases or decreases in risk? Do you have any recommended reading? My wife uses hormonal contraception so I have a vested interest in this research.
    - nabla9 8y ago
      Here is nice review papers: Medical Issues Associated with Anabolic Steroid Use: Are They Exaggerated? https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3827559/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3827559/ Anabolic-androgenic Steroid use and Psychopathology in Athletes. A Systematic Review https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4462035/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4462035/ TL;DR it's not settled issue but many adverse effects seem to be transitory. Long term usage has risks. Abuse and dependence is an health issue of course. ps. As a interesting side note. When you visit hospitals, pay attention to the musculature of male doctors. I'm sure they are gym rats with good genes, but many of them are muscular and low fat above age 40 in a way that requires something extra. They have ways to get quality stereoids and they can monitor their liver enzyme levels etc. If anyone can dope safely, it's MD.
      - tptacek 8y ago
        Only on Hacker News can you find someone using the axiomatic method to derive a conspiracy theory of doping among hospital doctors.
        growlist 8y ago
badosu 8y ago
I think the concerns are more about lowering the need of the testes to produce testosterone, leading to atrophy. Of course, it can be beneficial if you want to keep a baseline that's important for your health. Otherwise, something that's very risky if taken in the younger years.
sschueller 8y ago
I see this more and more in the fitness community of people thinking it is perfectly normal to be on TRT after 30. I personally think it's insane, a normal healthy male doe not have his libido disappear after 30 and does not need TRT. There was recently a post here about that most ED cases are psychological (stress etc. ) and not necessarily a problem with hormones.
- garmaine 8y ago
  Decline in T causes you to become more sensitive to stress with respect to erectile function. It’s entirely possible that both are correct. A sixteen year old going through puberty with hormones through the roof has no problem getting it up, stress or not (even when they don't want it, as every teenage boy knows). A 30 or 40 year old will have lower T levels, enough so that psychological issues can take the forefront and cause ED. It is still fair to ask if raising T levels can cause them to still perform while working stressful jobs, as we all have to do.
- derefr 8y ago
  Normal and healthy are different. In an environment full of xenoestrogens, TRT is possibly the only way to attain “normal” levels of T measured against a non-xenoestrogenic environment. That doesn’t imply it’s a good idea, but it might imply you should do it anyway. Or, to put that another way: in an environment that causes >20% of the population to be near-sighted, are glasses “normal”? Are they “healthy”? Do either of these questions even make sense? The real questions there, of course, are whether nearsightedness is “normal” and/or “healthy.” And so: is having (diagnosed) low testosterone normal? Healthy?
Tomte 8y ago
> You probably think it's bad to take, because of bad media. Yes, I think giving birth control to non-consenting people, especially children, is just as bad. But I didn't need the bad media to come to that view.
- garmaine 8y ago
  Teenagers given the pill have a significantly lower lifetime risk of HPV and cervical cancer.
  - Tomte 8y ago
    I meant -- in parallel to what we discuss here -- giving it surreptitiously. But you surely knew that.
projektir 8y ago
I think this is a point worth making, there could be a lot of confounding variables in this case. > But what do you think is in birth control? Most birth control is a pill full of estrogen and progesterone, two other bio-identical sex hormones. Birth control has a lot of bad side effects and many women actually avoid it because of them.
- adrianN 8y ago
  But they don't die ten years earlier even if they take it for most of their fertile years, or do they?
  - DoreenMichele 8y ago
    Hormonal birth control does terrible things to your health. But pregnancy is deadlier and harder on the body, and hormonal birth control is generally more reliable than other forms of birth control. So women who know it is really wracking them up do it anyway because it is better than having ten kids and being trapped in permanent poverty because of it, dying in child birth, being repeatedly maimed by the process of bringing a child into the world, etc. https://hormonesbalance.com/articles/pill-can-seriously-affect-womans-health/ https://hormonesbalance.com/articles/pill-can-seriously-affe... http://goingoffthepill.org/hormonal-birth-control-risks-side-effects/ http://goingoffthepill.org/hormonal-birth-control-risks-side...
    - derefr 8y ago
      How do both of these compare to the long-term effects of an early-life hysterectomy?
      - DoreenMichele 8y ago
        I don't actually know. I have never looked into that. But I have read of some cases where an early hysterectomy robbed the individual of their sex drive and their energy levels, among other things. And with any major surgery of that sort, you can always die from it or have complications. My personal opinion: The least invasive tubal ligation you can arrange is probably the least worst answer in most cases where permanent birth control is desired because it doesn't interfere with the body's own hormone production and less invasive is less risky. Second best would be a hysterectomy that leaves the ovaries in place.
JamesBarney 8y ago
Taking something for 12 weeks is very different than years. Also when you look at men on trt they have a much higher risk of cardiovascular events than matched individuals who opted to not take trt. This is pretty well established at this point. Not to mention we have the epidemiological data that men don't be live as long as women. And they've also found similar issues with HRT for women in menopause.(increased risk of stroke) But 10-12 years is probably a gross exaggeration. I wouldn't be surprised if this result is plagued with confounds( I don't think they did a survey of everyone). And these kids experienced a ton of non-doping related trauma. Not to mention the individual interviewed sounds more like an advocate than a scientist.
- derefr 8y ago
  I mean, all you’re saying here is that there are disadvantages to being male / masculinized. All you’re doing by signing up for TRT is signing up for the longevity of the average man vs. the longevity of the average woman or eunuch. Are you suggesting that everyone who naturally produces testosterone (i.e. is on a constant dose of “endogenous anabolic androgenic steroids”) would be better off if they stopped doing so? If not, then there’s got to be a genetic profile + dose level at which the advantages of TRT outweigh the costs.
- dahdum 8y ago
  Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I thought that cardiovascular risk is far from established fact. I'm seeing the opposite findings in recent research. [1] https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/mens-health/expert-answers/testosterone-therapy-side-effects/faq-20090015 https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/mens-health/exp... [2] https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/2604140 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullar...
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
87 8y ago
How is the last point relevant? Many people take a different sex hormone so this one might be okay too?
detaro 8y ago
We are not just talking about healthy young men when it's about GDR doping victims. You really think the benefits you'd consider "highly beneficial" in a man in his 20s are useful for girls and boys starting to take this stuff from 10-15 years old on? Liver failure, infertility, overly masculine features (more a problem for the women of course), injuries due to non-muscle parts of the body not being appropriately developed for the weight-lifting the muscles now can sustain, ... You can not use claims that steroids can be safely used to argue that "it wasn't so bad" for victims of criminal misuse of them, and your post dangerously sounds like trying to downplay it that way.
growlist 8y ago
What's inconsistent to me is how if you want to become a more masculine male - just a more enhanced version of yourself in one aspect - the consensus view is psychiatric disorder, body dysmorphia, and it's illegal for you to self-medicate whereas if you want to be the complete opposite of your gender the verdict is trapped in the wrong body, here's state funded mutilation surgery and lifelong medication to facilitate your delusion.

throwawaymath 8y ago

In consideration of the confidence with which you're asserting your claims are "well-studied", I think you should cite some of the specific research you're thinking of. In particular, I don't find your arguments, "because of bad media" and "But what do you think is in birth control?" very convincing.

CryoLogic 8y ago
What birth control is made of: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_oral_contraceptive_pill https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_oral_contraceptive_pi... Affects of high dosage testosterone for short intervals in healthy young men: https://www.physiology.org/doi/full/10.1152/ajpendo.2001.281.6.E1172 https://www.physiology.org/doi/full/10.1152/ajpendo.2001.281... Testosterone levels and mortality rates: http://jaha.ahajournals.org/content/ahaoa/2/6/e000272.full.pdf http://jaha.ahajournals.org/content/ahaoa/2/6/e000272.full.p... There is plenty out there, you just have to look around
- tptacek 8y ago
  That birth control pills contain hormones is not exactly a revelation. Another very common term for them is "hormonal contraception". They are not benign; their side effects can be pretty brutal, and they alter cancer risks (some forms increased, some decreased). (Some women are also prescribed hormonal contraceptive pills to mitigate problems like endometriosis.)
  - throwawaymath 8y ago
    For the side effects you're talking about, what are the relative and absolute increases or decreases in risk? Do you have any recommended reading? My wife uses hormonal contraception so I have a vested interest in this research.
  - nabla9 8y ago
    Here is nice review papers: Medical Issues Associated with Anabolic Steroid Use: Are They Exaggerated? https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3827559/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3827559/ Anabolic-androgenic Steroid use and Psychopathology in Athletes. A Systematic Review https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4462035/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4462035/ TL;DR it's not settled issue but many adverse effects seem to be transitory. Long term usage has risks. Abuse and dependence is an health issue of course. ps. As a interesting side note. When you visit hospitals, pay attention to the musculature of male doctors. I'm sure they are gym rats with good genes, but many of them are muscular and low fat above age 40 in a way that requires something extra. They have ways to get quality stereoids and they can monitor their liver enzyme levels etc. If anyone can dope safely, it's MD.
    - tptacek 8y ago
      Only on Hacker News can you find someone using the axiomatic method to derive a conspiracy theory of doping among hospital doctors.
      - growlist 8y ago

badosu 8y ago

I think the concerns are more about lowering the need of the testes to produce testosterone, leading to atrophy. Of course, it can be beneficial if you want to keep a baseline that's important for your health. Otherwise, something that's very risky if taken in the younger years.

sschueller 8y ago

I see this more and more in the fitness community of people thinking it is perfectly normal to be on TRT after 30. I personally think it's insane, a normal healthy male doe not have his libido disappear after 30 and does not need TRT. There was recently a post here about that most ED cases are psychological (stress etc. ) and not necessarily a problem with hormones.

garmaine 8y ago
Decline in T causes you to become more sensitive to stress with respect to erectile function. It’s entirely possible that both are correct. A sixteen year old going through puberty with hormones through the roof has no problem getting it up, stress or not (even when they don't want it, as every teenage boy knows). A 30 or 40 year old will have lower T levels, enough so that psychological issues can take the forefront and cause ED. It is still fair to ask if raising T levels can cause them to still perform while working stressful jobs, as we all have to do.
derefr 8y ago
Normal and healthy are different. In an environment full of xenoestrogens, TRT is possibly the only way to attain “normal” levels of T measured against a non-xenoestrogenic environment. That doesn’t imply it’s a good idea, but it might imply you should do it anyway. Or, to put that another way: in an environment that causes >20% of the population to be near-sighted, are glasses “normal”? Are they “healthy”? Do either of these questions even make sense? The real questions there, of course, are whether nearsightedness is “normal” and/or “healthy.” And so: is having (diagnosed) low testosterone normal? Healthy?

Tomte 8y ago

> You probably think it's bad to take, because of bad media. Yes, I think giving birth control to non-consenting people, especially children, is just as bad. But I didn't need the bad media to come to that view.

garmaine 8y ago
Teenagers given the pill have a significantly lower lifetime risk of HPV and cervical cancer.
- Tomte 8y ago
  I meant -- in parallel to what we discuss here -- giving it surreptitiously. But you surely knew that.

projektir 8y ago

I think this is a point worth making, there could be a lot of confounding variables in this case. > But what do you think is in birth control? Most birth control is a pill full of estrogen and progesterone, two other bio-identical sex hormones. Birth control has a lot of bad side effects and many women actually avoid it because of them.

adrianN 8y ago
But they don't die ten years earlier even if they take it for most of their fertile years, or do they?
- DoreenMichele 8y ago
  Hormonal birth control does terrible things to your health. But pregnancy is deadlier and harder on the body, and hormonal birth control is generally more reliable than other forms of birth control. So women who know it is really wracking them up do it anyway because it is better than having ten kids and being trapped in permanent poverty because of it, dying in child birth, being repeatedly maimed by the process of bringing a child into the world, etc. https://hormonesbalance.com/articles/pill-can-seriously-affect-womans-health/ https://hormonesbalance.com/articles/pill-can-seriously-affe... http://goingoffthepill.org/hormonal-birth-control-risks-side-effects/ http://goingoffthepill.org/hormonal-birth-control-risks-side...
  - derefr 8y ago
    How do both of these compare to the long-term effects of an early-life hysterectomy?
    - DoreenMichele 8y ago
      I don't actually know. I have never looked into that. But I have read of some cases where an early hysterectomy robbed the individual of their sex drive and their energy levels, among other things. And with any major surgery of that sort, you can always die from it or have complications. My personal opinion: The least invasive tubal ligation you can arrange is probably the least worst answer in most cases where permanent birth control is desired because it doesn't interfere with the body's own hormone production and less invasive is less risky. Second best would be a hysterectomy that leaves the ovaries in place.

JamesBarney 8y ago

Taking something for 12 weeks is very different than years. Also when you look at men on trt they have a much higher risk of cardiovascular events than matched individuals who opted to not take trt. This is pretty well established at this point. Not to mention we have the epidemiological data that men don't be live as long as women. And they've also found similar issues with HRT for women in menopause.(increased risk of stroke) But 10-12 years is probably a gross exaggeration. I wouldn't be surprised if this result is plagued with confounds( I don't think they did a survey of everyone). And these kids experienced a ton of non-doping related trauma. Not to mention the individual interviewed sounds more like an advocate than a scientist.

derefr 8y ago
I mean, all you’re saying here is that there are disadvantages to being male / masculinized. All you’re doing by signing up for TRT is signing up for the longevity of the average man vs. the longevity of the average woman or eunuch. Are you suggesting that everyone who naturally produces testosterone (i.e. is on a constant dose of “endogenous anabolic androgenic steroids”) would be better off if they stopped doing so? If not, then there’s got to be a genetic profile + dose level at which the advantages of TRT outweigh the costs.
dahdum 8y ago
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I thought that cardiovascular risk is far from established fact. I'm seeing the opposite findings in recent research. [1] https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/mens-health/expert-answers/testosterone-therapy-side-effects/faq-20090015 https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/mens-health/exp... [2] https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/2604140 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullar...

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

87 8y ago

How is the last point relevant? Many people take a different sex hormone so this one might be okay too?

detaro 8y ago

We are not just talking about healthy young men when it's about GDR doping victims. You really think the benefits you'd consider "highly beneficial" in a man in his 20s are useful for girls and boys starting to take this stuff from 10-15 years old on? Liver failure, infertility, overly masculine features (more a problem for the women of course), injuries due to non-muscle parts of the body not being appropriately developed for the weight-lifting the muscles now can sustain, ... You can not use claims that steroids can be safely used to argue that "it wasn't so bad" for victims of criminal misuse of them, and your post dangerously sounds like trying to downplay it that way.

growlist 8y ago

What's inconsistent to me is how if you want to become a more masculine male - just a more enhanced version of yourself in one aspect - the consensus view is psychiatric disorder, body dysmorphia, and it's illegal for you to self-medicate whereas if you want to be the complete opposite of your gender the verdict is trapped in the wrong body, here's state funded mutilation surgery and lifelong medication to facilitate your delusion.