4 ms·

That's true, but it feels like the HS curriculum has gotten easier, too, and that might be part of the reason that a high school diploma isn't valued by employe

That's true, but it feels like the HS curriculum has gotten easier, too, and that might be part of the reason that a high school diploma isn't valued by employers. My perception (anecdata!) is that helicopter parenting has badgered the faculty such that my niece and nephew have a lower bar than I did for any given letter grade (and that I had it easier than some of my much older cousins). Another point is that HS graduation rates in the United States have been basically flat (after a long, steady increase) since the 1970's [1], despite constant calls to increase it. When more than 9 of 10 people already have HS diplomas; when the economic condition of each student's family is highly predictive of graduation; and when and each school tends to have a fairly homogeneous characteristics, it's hard for me to see how you can raise graduation rates without lowering the bar. Unless you're open to adjusting the economic condition around under-performing schools, of course. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Educational_attainment_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Educational_attainment_in_the_...

dragonwriter 8y ago
> That's true, but it feels like the HS curriculum has gotten easier, too, and that might be part of the reason that a high school diploma isn't valued by employers. Since the early 1990s, what was then a fairly advanced college prep track for math seems to have become the baseline standard, and graduation requirements have increased in other ways. Compared to comparably-named classes, grading or presentation may have become less rigorous, but the baseline curriculum is more advanced, not less.
- StanislavPetrov 8y ago
  I'd have to disagree. My niece attends one of the top-rated high schools in the country. I recently perused her summer reading list and was astonished that the vast majority of them were books for children. Reading comprehension and writing proficiency are much, much lower than they were just a few decades ago, across all levels of schooling.
  - dsnuh 8y ago
    Which books for children?
  - pnutjam 8y ago
    Memory can be tricky. You need some data, not anecdotes.
    - jessaustin 8y ago
      Lots of us remember reading e.g. Shakespeare and Faulkner in high school. If the most challenging material they're reading now is Rowling (or whatever GP means by "books for children"), that is data.
      - dragonwriter 8y ago
        > Lots of us remember reading e.g. Shakespeare and Faulkner in high school. Yes, and my mom just last month retired from teachig English in a nothing-special (in ratings terms) high school in a relatively poor area, and was teaching Shakespeare, Donne, and the rest of the traditional canon of classic literature, as well as a small number of more current bits of non-juvenile literature that isn't part of the Eurocentric canon, works from Amy Tan and others (many of which I also remember reading—in college.) But in any case what makes it challenging or not isn't what books they read, but what the expectations are of what they'll be able to do having read them.
      - pnutjam 8y ago
        Yeah, lots of people "remember" doing things when they were sixteen or seventeen, or maybe even 12 or 13, but the memory gets murkier. In my experience, it's very easy for people to remember something they did at a given age fondly, and push it for their kids at a earlier age inadvertently. Memory is a tricky thing. I wouldn't be surprised if you aren't comparing today's 13 year old to your 16 year old self inadvertently.
        jessaustin 8y ago
jopsen 8y ago
> it's hard for me to see how you can raise graduation rates without lowering the bar. That's easy, we live in a world where each generation is smarter than the previous. For IQ tests measuring abstract thinking todays teenagers score an average of 3 points higher than teenagers did 10 years ago. This is due to better schooling, better edutainment of kids, and many other things such as increased focus on not leaving behind kids with learning disabilities. The trend is starting to ease of in the developed world. But only in the last 10 years or so... Whether the bar have been lowered is hard to disprove. But we know for fact that newer generations are far more book-smart than older ones where in their time. Note. Some forms of pure generalized intelligence don't have the same trends. But analytical and abstract thinking, also commonly known as book-smart or good in school is trending upwords over the generations. YES: kids today are actually smarter :)
- norge 8y ago
  What you're talking about is called the Flynn effect. There're many studies indicating it's not just "starting to ease", it's getting reversed for today's teenagers (i.e. they're getting dumber). Here's a recent one for Norway: http://www.pnas.org/content/115/26/6674 http://www.pnas.org/content/115/26/6674

dragonwriter 8y ago

> That's true, but it feels like the HS curriculum has gotten easier, too, and that might be part of the reason that a high school diploma isn't valued by employers. Since the early 1990s, what was then a fairly advanced college prep track for math seems to have become the baseline standard, and graduation requirements have increased in other ways. Compared to comparably-named classes, grading or presentation may have become less rigorous, but the baseline curriculum is more advanced, not less.

StanislavPetrov 8y ago
I'd have to disagree. My niece attends one of the top-rated high schools in the country. I recently perused her summer reading list and was astonished that the vast majority of them were books for children. Reading comprehension and writing proficiency are much, much lower than they were just a few decades ago, across all levels of schooling.
- dsnuh 8y ago
  Which books for children?
- pnutjam 8y ago
  Memory can be tricky. You need some data, not anecdotes.
  - jessaustin 8y ago
    Lots of us remember reading e.g. Shakespeare and Faulkner in high school. If the most challenging material they're reading now is Rowling (or whatever GP means by "books for children"), that is data.
    - dragonwriter 8y ago
      > Lots of us remember reading e.g. Shakespeare and Faulkner in high school. Yes, and my mom just last month retired from teachig English in a nothing-special (in ratings terms) high school in a relatively poor area, and was teaching Shakespeare, Donne, and the rest of the traditional canon of classic literature, as well as a small number of more current bits of non-juvenile literature that isn't part of the Eurocentric canon, works from Amy Tan and others (many of which I also remember reading—in college.) But in any case what makes it challenging or not isn't what books they read, but what the expectations are of what they'll be able to do having read them.
    - pnutjam 8y ago
      Yeah, lots of people "remember" doing things when they were sixteen or seventeen, or maybe even 12 or 13, but the memory gets murkier. In my experience, it's very easy for people to remember something they did at a given age fondly, and push it for their kids at a earlier age inadvertently. Memory is a tricky thing. I wouldn't be surprised if you aren't comparing today's 13 year old to your 16 year old self inadvertently.
      - jessaustin 8y ago

jopsen 8y ago

> it's hard for me to see how you can raise graduation rates without lowering the bar. That's easy, we live in a world where each generation is smarter than the previous. For IQ tests measuring abstract thinking todays teenagers score an average of 3 points higher than teenagers did 10 years ago. This is due to better schooling, better edutainment of kids, and many other things such as increased focus on not leaving behind kids with learning disabilities. The trend is starting to ease of in the developed world. But only in the last 10 years or so... Whether the bar have been lowered is hard to disprove. But we know for fact that newer generations are far more book-smart than older ones where in their time. Note. Some forms of pure generalized intelligence don't have the same trends. But analytical and abstract thinking, also commonly known as book-smart or good in school is trending upwords over the generations. YES: kids today are actually smarter :)

norge 8y ago
What you're talking about is called the Flynn effect. There're many studies indicating it's not just "starting to ease", it's getting reversed for today's teenagers (i.e. they're getting dumber). Here's a recent one for Norway: http://www.pnas.org/content/115/26/6674 http://www.pnas.org/content/115/26/6674