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Hearing all the negativity around this makes me a profound sort of sad. Here's a guy with some pretty unimaginable resources. He tries to use some of the reso

by blhack 8y ago

Hearing all the negativity around this makes me a profound sort of sad. Here's a guy with some pretty unimaginable resources. He tries to use some of the resources for good, and a bunch of people go out of their way to get upset at him for it, and then laugh when what he tried to help with didn't work. People slinging all this mud are the reason others are hesitant to help.

watwut 8y ago
I think that this guy issue is that on top of being in high pressure high stakes situation that require cooperation of huge amount of people, he had to deal also with that submarine thing. I don't know whether you had experience with clueless dominant people trying to help you, but it usually sux big time. And I mean, it sux and slows down in low pressure low stakes situations.
Itaxpica 8y ago
People’s issue isn’t with Musk trying to help, it’s Musk trying to help as a thinly-veiled publicity stunt. If Elon Musk has reached out quietly to the Thai government and asked what he could do with his resources and connections to help, THAT would have been using his resources for good. Throwing a bunch of your money at a cool-sounding but absolutely useless project that nobody asked for while making a lot of noise on Twitter about how helpful you are is pure self-aggrandizement, and that’s what people are reacting to.
- jonhendry18 8y ago
  "absolutely useless project that nobody asked for" The rescue effort started earlier than expected, so there wasn't time to iterate on the design. There's plenty to criticize Musk for but it's dumb to comment if you don't know the sequence of events.
  - thisacctforreal 8y ago
    Please limit the amount of duplicate comments.
  - compcoffee 8y ago
    One of the rescuers said it wouldn't have got 50 ft and that Musk had no clue what it was like in the cave. Pure PR, just like a bunch of us said in many threads about his submarine heroics on this site. Sorry you couldn't see through it.
- jeksus 8y ago
  He is Musk. He is under the media radar. It's kind difficult for him to do thing quietly. Also, he initially didn't want to help >I suspect that the Thai govt has this under control, but I’m happy to help if there is a way to do so https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1014509856777293825 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1014509856777293825
JustSomeNobody 8y ago
I don't think you are quite understanding why people are negative towards Musk. It's not that he tried to help. It's how he went about it. He inserted himself into the problem, he turned it into a Tweetstorm PR campaign. And eventually came up with a "solution" that wasn't feasible. The people who were asked to come and help are the domain experts. Stay out of their way and let them do what they do best.
- dsnuh 8y ago
  From the article it sounded like the rocket sub was only part of what Musk tried to contribute, and he also offered tunneling equipment, an escape tube system idea, and advanced ground penetrating radar. No matter how feasible any of these were, or if he went about it in a tacky way, it's a lot more than I did.
  - JustSomeNobody 8y ago
    But, understand that you don't have to do anything. The rescuers are trained to do what they did. It is perfectly ok to let them do what they do.
  - hndamien 8y ago
    And batteries for any power equipment like pumps.
- jonhendry18 8y ago
  " And eventually came up with a "solution" that wasn't feasible." Please don't comment if you don't even know the sequence of events in Thailand. The rescue started sooner than expected. Had there been a longer wait there would have been time to iterate on ideas.
  - JustSomeNobody 8y ago
    I'm going by what was reported by the rescuers.
  - compcoffee 8y ago
maxxxxx 8y ago
I was very skeptical of his involvement because I have seen similar situations at work. When I was a consultant I often worked on emergency situations where you had to bring systems back online quickly. Sometimes the CEO would come in and say "You can get whatever you want" and suddenly you had all these important people who didn't know the situation ask questions and give suggestions. Now you had the problem at hand and you had to baby these people in addition. Once the problem was solved the CEO and his people took credit for the fix and went away despite in reality only causing problems. There was simply no time for the people on location to look at Musk's stuff and testing it. It would have been a big distraction from the work at hand. So far I would rate his involvement as pure PR stunt. However, if he kept working on this now that the crisis is over and worked with experts on something viable for the next rescue he would be really helpful. I don't know if that's happening and to be honest I have my doubts.
- jonhendry18 8y ago
  "However, if he kept working on this now that the crisis is over and worked with experts on something viable for the next rescue he would be really helpful." The rescue started earlier than expected. If it had been another week or two there would have been time for more iteration or for the project to be scrapped.
  - maxxxxx 8y ago
    He can work on it now. This is not the last cave rescue. Doing it now is less glamorous though.
jcranmer 8y ago
Sometimes, particularly in disaster situations, the most help you can give is to stay away and let the people who can do the most good work without distraction. The original intent of the rescue, judging from the Washington Post version of this article, was to have the two rescue drivers carry the kid between them as much as possible. It was realized when they were transporting the first kid that said transit mechanism was impossible, as the space was too cramped to do that; the operation then had one diver carrying the kid, swapping divers frequently because that's a very physically taxing job. Between the weight and the length of the sub, it's clear from descriptions of the rescue operation that it was completely unusable. Any attempt to use it would have had a very high risk of it getting wedged somewhere in the cave that would have made the cave impassable. And guess what? Pretty much everyone who had some sort of experience with caving commented that the sub idea was unworkable when it was first announced. Just because you want to help doesn't mean you can help, and you shouldn't give someone a pass on their actions just because they're trying to help. As the saying goes, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
- DareRight 8y ago
  Of course you should stay out of the way. But on the other hand, if everyone stayed out of the way, nobody would actually help. Do you see all those miles of hoses? Where do you suppose those came from? Did you see the discarded pile that were 8cm instead of 10cm? Who is mocking the fire department that donated those? What about that silly convenience store that shipped in all the Spam to feed people who would prefer to eat roast beef? Should we mock them for all the Spam that got thrown away? When you and I sat in front of our monitors to see what others were doing, some people took inventory of their resources and offered whatever they could in the chance that it might be useful. They were willing for it to be thrown away if it wasn't useful. I'm not here to apologise for Musk. I'm here to praise everyone who donated food, tanks, hoses, pumps, skeds, submarines, money, housing, or their life. Thank you.
  - maxxxxx 8y ago
    Now that the crisis is over Musk's opportunity has arrived. Work with some experts in quiet to see if better solutions can be developed. And put some money behind it. I hope he takes that opportunity.

by blhack 8y ago

watwut 8y ago

I think that this guy issue is that on top of being in high pressure high stakes situation that require cooperation of huge amount of people, he had to deal also with that submarine thing. I don't know whether you had experience with clueless dominant people trying to help you, but it usually sux big time. And I mean, it sux and slows down in low pressure low stakes situations.

Itaxpica 8y ago

People’s issue isn’t with Musk trying to help, it’s Musk trying to help as a thinly-veiled publicity stunt. If Elon Musk has reached out quietly to the Thai government and asked what he could do with his resources and connections to help, THAT would have been using his resources for good. Throwing a bunch of your money at a cool-sounding but absolutely useless project that nobody asked for while making a lot of noise on Twitter about how helpful you are is pure self-aggrandizement, and that’s what people are reacting to.

jonhendry18 8y ago
"absolutely useless project that nobody asked for" The rescue effort started earlier than expected, so there wasn't time to iterate on the design. There's plenty to criticize Musk for but it's dumb to comment if you don't know the sequence of events.
- thisacctforreal 8y ago
  Please limit the amount of duplicate comments.
- compcoffee 8y ago
  One of the rescuers said it wouldn't have got 50 ft and that Musk had no clue what it was like in the cave. Pure PR, just like a bunch of us said in many threads about his submarine heroics on this site. Sorry you couldn't see through it.
jeksus 8y ago
He is Musk. He is under the media radar. It's kind difficult for him to do thing quietly. Also, he initially didn't want to help >I suspect that the Thai govt has this under control, but I’m happy to help if there is a way to do so https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1014509856777293825 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1014509856777293825

JustSomeNobody 8y ago

I don't think you are quite understanding why people are negative towards Musk. It's not that he tried to help. It's how he went about it. He inserted himself into the problem, he turned it into a Tweetstorm PR campaign. And eventually came up with a "solution" that wasn't feasible. The people who were asked to come and help are the domain experts. Stay out of their way and let them do what they do best.

dsnuh 8y ago
From the article it sounded like the rocket sub was only part of what Musk tried to contribute, and he also offered tunneling equipment, an escape tube system idea, and advanced ground penetrating radar. No matter how feasible any of these were, or if he went about it in a tacky way, it's a lot more than I did.
- JustSomeNobody 8y ago
  But, understand that you don't have to do anything. The rescuers are trained to do what they did. It is perfectly ok to let them do what they do.
- hndamien 8y ago
  And batteries for any power equipment like pumps.
jonhendry18 8y ago
" And eventually came up with a "solution" that wasn't feasible." Please don't comment if you don't even know the sequence of events in Thailand. The rescue started sooner than expected. Had there been a longer wait there would have been time to iterate on ideas.
- JustSomeNobody 8y ago
  I'm going by what was reported by the rescuers.
- compcoffee 8y ago

maxxxxx 8y ago

I was very skeptical of his involvement because I have seen similar situations at work. When I was a consultant I often worked on emergency situations where you had to bring systems back online quickly. Sometimes the CEO would come in and say "You can get whatever you want" and suddenly you had all these important people who didn't know the situation ask questions and give suggestions. Now you had the problem at hand and you had to baby these people in addition. Once the problem was solved the CEO and his people took credit for the fix and went away despite in reality only causing problems. There was simply no time for the people on location to look at Musk's stuff and testing it. It would have been a big distraction from the work at hand. So far I would rate his involvement as pure PR stunt. However, if he kept working on this now that the crisis is over and worked with experts on something viable for the next rescue he would be really helpful. I don't know if that's happening and to be honest I have my doubts.

jonhendry18 8y ago
"However, if he kept working on this now that the crisis is over and worked with experts on something viable for the next rescue he would be really helpful." The rescue started earlier than expected. If it had been another week or two there would have been time for more iteration or for the project to be scrapped.
- maxxxxx 8y ago
  He can work on it now. This is not the last cave rescue. Doing it now is less glamorous though.

jcranmer 8y ago

Sometimes, particularly in disaster situations, the most help you can give is to stay away and let the people who can do the most good work without distraction. The original intent of the rescue, judging from the Washington Post version of this article, was to have the two rescue drivers carry the kid between them as much as possible. It was realized when they were transporting the first kid that said transit mechanism was impossible, as the space was too cramped to do that; the operation then had one diver carrying the kid, swapping divers frequently because that's a very physically taxing job. Between the weight and the length of the sub, it's clear from descriptions of the rescue operation that it was completely unusable. Any attempt to use it would have had a very high risk of it getting wedged somewhere in the cave that would have made the cave impassable. And guess what? Pretty much everyone who had some sort of experience with caving commented that the sub idea was unworkable when it was first announced. Just because you want to help doesn't mean you can help, and you shouldn't give someone a pass on their actions just because they're trying to help. As the saying goes, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

DareRight 8y ago
Of course you should stay out of the way. But on the other hand, if everyone stayed out of the way, nobody would actually help. Do you see all those miles of hoses? Where do you suppose those came from? Did you see the discarded pile that were 8cm instead of 10cm? Who is mocking the fire department that donated those? What about that silly convenience store that shipped in all the Spam to feed people who would prefer to eat roast beef? Should we mock them for all the Spam that got thrown away? When you and I sat in front of our monitors to see what others were doing, some people took inventory of their resources and offered whatever they could in the chance that it might be useful. They were willing for it to be thrown away if it wasn't useful. I'm not here to apologise for Musk. I'm here to praise everyone who donated food, tanks, hoses, pumps, skeds, submarines, money, housing, or their life. Thank you.
- maxxxxx 8y ago
  Now that the crisis is over Musk's opportunity has arrived. Work with some experts in quiet to see if better solutions can be developed. And put some money behind it. I hope he takes that opportunity.