5 ms·

Problem is not with therapy in itself but with the skill and-or decency of the therapist. Just as happens with mechanics, programmers, etc. The unskilled will

by gfs78 8y ago

Problem is not with therapy in itself but with the skill and-or decency of the therapist. Just as happens with mechanics, programmers, etc. The unskilled will make a mess of what they are given out of incompetence. The dishonest will make a mess of what they are given out of greed and malice. Sadly, in this case, the one suffering the consequences is not a car or some code but a person.

white-flame 8y ago
As this appears to be about measuring statistical association, and not just singling out individual failure cases, are you implying that the entire industry is generally filled with unskilled and dishonest people? Edit: It was an honest question, and it does appear to be considered an untrustworthy profession as a whole here. I was just asking clarification if that was the intention of the parent poster.
- s-shellfish 8y ago
  There's an information imbalance. A lot of people have access to lots of stuff that can tell them how to live their life better. They have access to information about psychology, about how their brain works. They have access to information that in endless varieties of ways, can 'hack' their brain, change them. 1. This doesn't make people happy. Constantly trying to fix yourself is like running past the goal post as soon as you get there. 2. Life just sucks sometimes, and therapy doesn't always make it better. You can't force a therapist to actually have compassion and empathy for someone if they don't. This may be complicated. Therapists and stuff may have their own issues, like the fact that they have to deal with a world where everyone has access to almost the same information they do. How can they help? How can they deal with a dynamic where a mentally ill person may even understand this, and have compassion for it? That has to be confusing. The world is crazy and there are no rules. We want to believe there are rules when there is chaos, but there aren't. Sometimes you just have to trust people. That can be really scary if you don't know them, and it can also be really scary if you've been educated into a career where you are constantly on the lookout for people that could be ... dangerous. Also culture. There's a fuck ton of stigma going around for mentally ill people lately. Just because we were more aware of it a couple of years ago doesn't mean it improved collectively. We've taken a massive step backwards culturally when we blame every horrible thing that happens in the world on mentally ill people. That's all in the cultural background noise, it changes things, affects the ways people see things, affects their fears. We are not omnipotent beings that know everything. Some information that people with fucked up intentions intend on spreading for whatever intent - you gotta fight it. If you don't, it's going to hurt you in the long run. That's something I've learned through lots of confusion.
- smt88 8y ago
  Are you saying all industries have a normal curve of skill, with the middle of the curve being neutral/zero?
- Zelphyr 8y ago
  My experience tends to confirm this. I have had two personal therapists, one was of the "Why do _you_ think you feel that way?" ilk with some kind of counseling certification, and the other was an evidence-based practitioner with a PsyD. The former didn't help me at all and the latter changed my life. My wife and I saw two couples therapists. One was, again, a guy with some kind of certificate that did things like literally pulling the Good Will Hunting "It's not your fault. It's not your fault." hand-on-knee line as well as outright verbally attacking my wife. The other was a PsyD who made more progress with us in three sessions than almost a year of sessions with the other. The crux of it all, in my estimation, is that you get what you pay for. A PsyD having a doctorate can command hundreds per hour which puts them out of range for many people.
- gfs78 8y ago
  Yes.
mattnewport 8y ago
If you have a bacterial infection, a relatively incompetent doctor giving you an antibiotic is going to do you a lot more good than the world's best homeopathist. The question then is whether therapy is more like medicine or more like homeopathy. This study suggests it might actually be worse than homeopathy which at least doesn't appear to cause worse outcomes than doing nothing.
- ianlevesque 8y ago
  > at least doesn't appear to cause worse outcomes than doing nothing I wouldn’t be so sure https://arstechnica.com/science/2017/09/cdc-homeopathic-healing-bracelet-poisons-baby-with-high-levels-of-lead/ https://arstechnica.com/science/2017/09/cdc-homeopathic-heal...

by gfs78 8y ago

white-flame 8y ago

As this appears to be about measuring statistical association, and not just singling out individual failure cases, are you implying that the entire industry is generally filled with unskilled and dishonest people? Edit: It was an honest question, and it does appear to be considered an untrustworthy profession as a whole here. I was just asking clarification if that was the intention of the parent poster.

s-shellfish 8y ago
There's an information imbalance. A lot of people have access to lots of stuff that can tell them how to live their life better. They have access to information about psychology, about how their brain works. They have access to information that in endless varieties of ways, can 'hack' their brain, change them. 1. This doesn't make people happy. Constantly trying to fix yourself is like running past the goal post as soon as you get there. 2. Life just sucks sometimes, and therapy doesn't always make it better. You can't force a therapist to actually have compassion and empathy for someone if they don't. This may be complicated. Therapists and stuff may have their own issues, like the fact that they have to deal with a world where everyone has access to almost the same information they do. How can they help? How can they deal with a dynamic where a mentally ill person may even understand this, and have compassion for it? That has to be confusing. The world is crazy and there are no rules. We want to believe there are rules when there is chaos, but there aren't. Sometimes you just have to trust people. That can be really scary if you don't know them, and it can also be really scary if you've been educated into a career where you are constantly on the lookout for people that could be ... dangerous. Also culture. There's a fuck ton of stigma going around for mentally ill people lately. Just because we were more aware of it a couple of years ago doesn't mean it improved collectively. We've taken a massive step backwards culturally when we blame every horrible thing that happens in the world on mentally ill people. That's all in the cultural background noise, it changes things, affects the ways people see things, affects their fears. We are not omnipotent beings that know everything. Some information that people with fucked up intentions intend on spreading for whatever intent - you gotta fight it. If you don't, it's going to hurt you in the long run. That's something I've learned through lots of confusion.
smt88 8y ago
Are you saying all industries have a normal curve of skill, with the middle of the curve being neutral/zero?
Zelphyr 8y ago
My experience tends to confirm this. I have had two personal therapists, one was of the "Why do _you_ think you feel that way?" ilk with some kind of counseling certification, and the other was an evidence-based practitioner with a PsyD. The former didn't help me at all and the latter changed my life. My wife and I saw two couples therapists. One was, again, a guy with some kind of certificate that did things like literally pulling the Good Will Hunting "It's not your fault. It's not your fault." hand-on-knee line as well as outright verbally attacking my wife. The other was a PsyD who made more progress with us in three sessions than almost a year of sessions with the other. The crux of it all, in my estimation, is that you get what you pay for. A PsyD having a doctorate can command hundreds per hour which puts them out of range for many people.
gfs78 8y ago
Yes.

mattnewport 8y ago

If you have a bacterial infection, a relatively incompetent doctor giving you an antibiotic is going to do you a lot more good than the world's best homeopathist. The question then is whether therapy is more like medicine or more like homeopathy. This study suggests it might actually be worse than homeopathy which at least doesn't appear to cause worse outcomes than doing nothing.

ianlevesque 8y ago
> at least doesn't appear to cause worse outcomes than doing nothing I wouldn’t be so sure https://arstechnica.com/science/2017/09/cdc-homeopathic-healing-bracelet-poisons-baby-with-high-levels-of-lead/ https://arstechnica.com/science/2017/09/cdc-homeopathic-heal...