4 ms·

In practice, whenever there is a special exemption for disabled people, it imposes costs on them. It's another obstacle to request accomodations, but also it in

In practice, whenever there is a special exemption for disabled people, it imposes costs on them. It's another obstacle to request accomodations, but also it incurs the risk of public shaming if someone decides that you don't deserve them: https://twitter.com/beth_vrabel/status/993691472766668801?lang=en https://twitter.com/beth_vrabel/status/993691472766668801?la.... As with web accessibility, where possible, the best solution is to make the solution that is given to all the rest of us the same solution that disabled people are given. Sometimes we can't do that (e.g. special handicapped spots near the extrance to a building are valuable), but that shouldn't be our standard approach.

justinator 8y ago
Then I don't know what you want to do: are we just going to live in a world where plastic straws need to exist? In the long run, that doesn't work well for ANYONE.
- hyperpape 8y ago
  Yeah, that sounds fine to me. This would be a reasonable objection if plastic straws were going to drastically change our impact on the environment. If we were a near zero-emission, zero-waste society, and plastic straws were the last thing holding us back from sustainability on a thousand-millions of years time frame, then maybe we should force the issue. But until then, making life harder for disabled people in order to make a tiny dent at the edges of the pollution our society creates is not worth it.
  - justinator 8y ago
    Then I would have to disagree with your point of view as marginal gains in a lot of different areas in all our lives (tiny dents, as you say) is how we're going to change things, barring a deus ex machina massive breakthrough in technology, which - I'm not going to hold my breath. One could use the, "I'm not given up x, until y is reached" for almost anything that's a contemporary convenience or luxury. That's stymies most any progress. If the problem is people's view on disabled people, then we need to change people's view. If right now, we can get rid of plastic, single-use straws, except for disabled people, then to me: that sounds like a very reasonable compromise to marginally remove new plastic from the environment.
    - hyperpape 8y ago
      There's a difference between asking everyone in society to give up something equally small (this was arguably true of the restrictions on incandescent bulbs that went into effect roughly ten years ago), and putting a disproportionate burden on people who are already disadvantaged and actively discriminated against. My point isn't "never do anything small", it's "find something else to do that doesn't hurt people who really deserve better".
      - justinator 8y ago
        You're framing plastic straws as an inalienable right. I'm saying we can live without them; we did before and for most of recorded human history. This isn't an impossible problem to solve.
        hyperpape 8y ago
        For much of human history, we let disabled people die, murdered them as children, or treated them like animals. Any appeal to what we did for most of human history is worthless. The question is, given modern technology, how can we do best for all of us?
amyjess 8y ago
In addition, it also forces disabled people to out themselves in cases where their disability isn't particularly visible, which can be humiliating for people who don't want the whole world to know exactly how their body is malfunctioning. For example, here's a comment on one of the posts on Lawrence Carter-Long's Facebook page: > Not an answer to your question, but I wanted to report to you in case it's useful for your media appearances (and thank you for being our spokesperson!): Yesterday I was at an upscale restaurant, one of my favorites where I have dined countless times before. I ordered a ginger ale and they brought it in a glass with ice, no straw. I asked our server, politely of course, for a straw when she had a chance. She replied "Actually we are doing a no straw policy now. It's better for the earth" (or something along those lines). After a little bit more about eco stuff, during which I was just kind of in shock, she then added, "but if you want one, you can ask for it," which was said in quite an unfriendly voice although up until that point she had been a very smiley, friendly server. I replied "As a disabled person who needs a straw, I am going to request one." and then she brought one. But it was very uncomfortable and everyone at my table agreed that while we all supported having an "opt-in" policy, once I had asked for a straw, the policy should be to bring one rather than trying to basically "eco-shame" people out of asking. My disability, a genetic connective tissue disorder, was not visible to the waitress, but it means that when drinking from a glass, especially with ice, I have trouble swallowing without using a straw. Without a straw I am likely to choke, splutter, and/or spill my drink down my front. I felt humiliated and angry that I had to out myself as disabled in order to get the straw I asked for. Please feel free to use this story in your interviews if it's useful, and if not, thanks for listening to me vent!

justinator 8y ago

Then I don't know what you want to do: are we just going to live in a world where plastic straws need to exist? In the long run, that doesn't work well for ANYONE.

hyperpape 8y ago
Yeah, that sounds fine to me. This would be a reasonable objection if plastic straws were going to drastically change our impact on the environment. If we were a near zero-emission, zero-waste society, and plastic straws were the last thing holding us back from sustainability on a thousand-millions of years time frame, then maybe we should force the issue. But until then, making life harder for disabled people in order to make a tiny dent at the edges of the pollution our society creates is not worth it.
- justinator 8y ago
  Then I would have to disagree with your point of view as marginal gains in a lot of different areas in all our lives (tiny dents, as you say) is how we're going to change things, barring a deus ex machina massive breakthrough in technology, which - I'm not going to hold my breath. One could use the, "I'm not given up x, until y is reached" for almost anything that's a contemporary convenience or luxury. That's stymies most any progress. If the problem is people's view on disabled people, then we need to change people's view. If right now, we can get rid of plastic, single-use straws, except for disabled people, then to me: that sounds like a very reasonable compromise to marginally remove new plastic from the environment.
  - hyperpape 8y ago
    There's a difference between asking everyone in society to give up something equally small (this was arguably true of the restrictions on incandescent bulbs that went into effect roughly ten years ago), and putting a disproportionate burden on people who are already disadvantaged and actively discriminated against. My point isn't "never do anything small", it's "find something else to do that doesn't hurt people who really deserve better".
    - justinator 8y ago
      You're framing plastic straws as an inalienable right. I'm saying we can live without them; we did before and for most of recorded human history. This isn't an impossible problem to solve.
      - hyperpape 8y ago
        For much of human history, we let disabled people die, murdered them as children, or treated them like animals. Any appeal to what we did for most of human history is worthless. The question is, given modern technology, how can we do best for all of us?

amyjess 8y ago

In addition, it also forces disabled people to out themselves in cases where their disability isn't particularly visible, which can be humiliating for people who don't want the whole world to know exactly how their body is malfunctioning. For example, here's a comment on one of the posts on Lawrence Carter-Long's Facebook page: > Not an answer to your question, but I wanted to report to you in case it's useful for your media appearances (and thank you for being our spokesperson!): Yesterday I was at an upscale restaurant, one of my favorites where I have dined countless times before. I ordered a ginger ale and they brought it in a glass with ice, no straw. I asked our server, politely of course, for a straw when she had a chance. She replied "Actually we are doing a no straw policy now. It's better for the earth" (or something along those lines). After a little bit more about eco stuff, during which I was just kind of in shock, she then added, "but if you want one, you can ask for it," which was said in quite an unfriendly voice although up until that point she had been a very smiley, friendly server. I replied "As a disabled person who needs a straw, I am going to request one." and then she brought one. But it was very uncomfortable and everyone at my table agreed that while we all supported having an "opt-in" policy, once I had asked for a straw, the policy should be to bring one rather than trying to basically "eco-shame" people out of asking. My disability, a genetic connective tissue disorder, was not visible to the waitress, but it means that when drinking from a glass, especially with ice, I have trouble swallowing without using a straw. Without a straw I am likely to choke, splutter, and/or spill my drink down my front. I felt humiliated and angry that I had to out myself as disabled in order to get the straw I asked for. Please feel free to use this story in your interviews if it's useful, and if not, thanks for listening to me vent!