5 ms·

The advice isn't bad, it's just being interpreted badly. You may find computer programming totally boring, and you may find environmental volunteering very ful

The advice isn't bad, it's just being interpreted badly. You may find computer programming totally boring, and you may find environmental volunteering very fulfilling. But you're good at programming and it pays well. So take your passion, environmental volunteering, and work hard to get a programming job that is related to environmentalism. Now you're doing something boring, but in service of a cause that is meaningful to you. > "How to cultivate a “growth” mind-set in the young, future-psychology-experiment subjects of America? If you’re a parent, you can avoid dropping new hobbies as soon as they become difficult. Beyond that, there’s not a clear way to develop a growth mind-set about interests" ...Or, don't tell your kids what they should do, don't prevent them from trying new things, and engage them in different subjects in a way that inspire wonder and instill a sense of possibility and accomplishment.

bluGill 8y ago
There is only so much need for programmers in environmental volunteering. There is a great need for programmers who can write software for insurance companies. I know a number of great programmers who have left those jobs because they are doing boring. The ones who remain find things to enjoy outside of work. Some love programming and are happy to be paid to do it, but most are just great programmers doing a boring job 9-5 and going home at night to something they love. The only thing they love about their job is it is 9-5, overtime is rare, and they have to take a two week paid vacation every year (a fraud prevention measure to make it hard to cover any wrong doing). Likewise, nobody is passionate about hauling my trash to the dump. (I have kids in diapers so my trash stinks) Nobody is passionate about cleaning septic systems. The jobs have to be done though. All of the above jobs have something in common: well paid compared the the level of skill required. The people who do them have learned to do their job, and they have learned to find something else in life to enjoy.
- peterwwillis 8y ago
  I could be inspired to haul trash. If I knew the system put in place was designed to get people to minimize their actual trash, that organic waste was being reused properly for compost, and that multi-stream recycling was in place, I would feel pretty good about what I was doing. Work in waste management: save the planet. I don't know how to get established cities to follow such a program, but Taiwan seems to have figured it out. https://www.wsj.com/articles/taiwan-the-worlds-geniuses-of-garbage-disposal-1463519134 https://www.wsj.com/articles/taiwan-the-worlds-geniuses-of-g...
  - kolpa 8y ago
    Hauling trash in USA is a terrible job. Overflowing with criminals and safety hazards. https://features.propublica.org/sanitation-salvage/sanitation-salvage-accidents-new-york-city-commercial-carting-garbage/ https://features.propublica.org/sanitation-salvage/sanitatio...
    - 2trill2spill 8y ago
      I think there's quite a big difference between the trash business in New York City and most other places in the country.
- _raoulcousins 8y ago
  What do you mean by "(a fraud prevention measure to make it hard to cover any wrong doing)"?
  - rpeden 8y ago
    It's not all that common for developers, but forced vacations are fairly normal in accounting and finance - or at least they were in another lifetime when I worked in accounting. There have been cases where an employee has been committing fraud, but it wasn't discovered for years because the person never took a day off and so was able to continually cover up their wrongdoing. There's a decent discussion of it here on Stack Exchange: https://security.stackexchange.com/questions/107060/mandatory-vacation-as-a-security-control https://security.stackexchange.com/questions/107060/mandator...
    - mikestew 8y ago
      but forced vacations are fairly normal in accounting and finance - or at least they were in another lifetime when I worked in accounting. It probably hasn't been ten years since my aunt's most recent husband got caught in that exact manner, and I'd frankly be surprised if it weren't still common, given that it appears to work. (As a footnote, it was an interesting phenomenon to watch. "He's an accountant at some no-name company, and she sells Mary Kay. Where the hell are these Bahama vacations and the big house coming from? Mary Kay didn't give her that Cadillac, she bought it because no one buys Mary Kay. I dunno, must be up to their eyeballs in debt." Of course, looking back now it was friggin' obvious. His unfortunate solution to the hammer that was soon to fall on his head involved a 12 gauge shotgun.)
- hahamrfunnyguy 8y ago
  Sure there will be boring tasks to do in every project, but there are usually interesting ones too. If you can have fun with your co-workers, it also makes boring work more enjoyable. The most boring job I ever held was working in an office supply store. The people were boring, the customers were boring (and there weren't that many of them). I even worked in a warehouse on a packing line. That was pretty boring work, but the staff there found ways to amuse themselves and it was always busy. The days went by quickly.
kaycebasques 8y ago
> Now you're doing something boring, but in service of a cause that is meaningful to you. I think this is a good balance. Another way to look at it is from a "theory of change" [1] mindset. I discovered this idea a few weeks ago, from a HN comment, I believe. You envision some type of change that you want to bring about in the world, and then you work backwards in concrete steps in order to figure out how to make it happen. What's cool about this is that it gives you a clear purpose for going outside of your comfort zone and learning new skills. E.g. maybe you're a programmer, and you want to get the US on renewable energy. You're good at programming, but through your analysis you realize that persuading people (politics) is the most likely path to your goal. So you start improving your interpersonal skills. [1]: http://www.aaronsw.com/weblog/theoryofchange http://www.aaronsw.com/weblog/theoryofchange As far as growth mindset, it's strange that the article said "Beyond that, there's not a clear way to develop a growth mindset about interests." The canonical book on the topic [2] offers many more ideas on how to cultivate growth mindset. [2]: https://www.amazon.com/Mindset-Psychology-Carol-S-Dweck/dp/0345472322 https://www.amazon.com/Mindset-Psychology-Carol-S-Dweck/dp/0...
s-shellfish 8y ago
> Now you're doing something boring, but in service of a cause that is meaningful to you. Finding your passion is much better advice than doing what you think people want you to be doing with your life. I honestly think that's all it means. Do something that connects to you. People don't like to think about being all alone in the world, but the hard truth of life is one day we might be. You don't want to stick yourself in a panopticon of memories reminding you of choices you didn't choose independently. It's not the worst thing to happen to a person, but it's very similar to the abstract functionality of PTSD. Trying to escape yourself while finding your own value system can be just as imprisoning, especially if your value system actually winds up aligning with whoever chose whatever for you. I've made these mistakes in life, so, trying to return to a version of myself where I had my own passion. But it just loops back around, and that's...it sucks. Finding stuff to do that resonates as crystal clear true to you is really, really important. Don't knock it because being respected and valued and admired by others is nice to experience. Here in an instant and gone in a flash. And if those things don't connect to you at core, it's really, really hard rebuilding yourself without going completely insane. It breaks you down and you have to build yourself back up again. Over and over. It seems to come at a cost I can't identify entirely. Sort of thing that makes you want to stare for a thousand miles and just wonder 'why'. And if you can't find anything in your life to be joyful and accepting about, it just leads to a silent variant of rage. Strong arguments, prickly, walled off people. This gets compounded if the only things you seem to enjoy may be a bit on the stigmatized side of things, or simply, not in line with current trends. So this cycle, of being broken and having to rebuild yourself, you don't want it to control you. You want to have control over it. Finding your passion, accepting it. Very important to being happy and being able to improve lives around you.
srmatto 8y ago
I respectfully disagree. I think this is precisely where the "follow your passion" advice logically concludes a lot of the time and it results in a painful search for gainful employment. I spent years trying to follow this mantra and it left me unfulfilled, confused, and resentful. As soon as I went back to doing what I am innately good at, I became much happier. I instead focused on improving my skills and having a positive impact at my workplace with the people I work with. This has lead to far more fulfillment than when I was "following my passion." I also would like to add that I think "follow your passion" is largely broken because its hard to know what that even is a lot of the time. And then taking something fleeting and attempting to build a life on top of it is reckless. This week I might enjoy cooking and trying to get better at that. Should I then drop everything and go to culinary school? This week I enjoy carpentry, should I start a carpentry business? Now its gardening, should I become a landscaper? etc...
- peterwwillis 8y ago
  Well first off, I'm sorry you had that experience, that sucks, and I'm glad you're better off now. I think what I'm suggesting is that if you have an idea that your passion might be gardening, you don't have to become a landscaper. You could work for a company that develops non-patented disease-resistant seeds, or a company that grows plants for sale in big box stores, or maybe even a small start-up that tries to connect small farmers that grow unique crops to restaurants that want to provide a unique menu. Maybe it should be re-worded as "try to combine your skills with your interests".
  - kaitai 8y ago
    It is worth remembering that the skills and the interests need to be combined in your life, not every day at work. Maybe you are passionate about gardening so you have a good job that pays well and keeps summer hours, letting you spend your weekends gardening. I have a passion that I engage with for a living (math) and it's currently keeping me underpaid. I'm also very interested in art and so I go to museums, work on learning how to paint, etc -- and if it was my job, I'd stop liking it. I like it so much because it's a complement. Some passions are like hot sauce -- a sprinkling makes almost every food better, while a full bowl gives you the runs.
ryanackley 8y ago
I agree. The advice should read, "Find something you can be passionate about that you can also make a living at" Personally, I feel like people who take "find your passion" literally are just using the advice to rationalize their own entitlement.
ksenzee 8y ago
> ...Or, don't tell your kids what they should do I disagree here. Telling our kids what they should do is a good-sized chunk of a parent's job, all the way from "Don't touch that stove" to "Pick a public place to meet strangers from the internet." "Don't major in art history at a $30k/year school unless we win the lottery" is the same class of advice, and you can be sure my kids will hear it from me.
- gascan 8y ago
  "Don't major in art history at a $30k/year school unless we win the lottery" If you put it in precisely those terms, I would wager one of your kids will, of all possible career choices, choose to major in art history for exactly $30k/year.
  - bumholio 8y ago
    Any parent will tell you that inducing a desired teenager behavior while maintaining the illusion of free will is a simple wording trick: "I would love to see you succeed in any career you choose; of course, society values things very materialistically, for example an art major will never afford a fancy car and clothes, a big house with a pool and trips around the world. But you will have your love of art and lots of art albums if that's what really maters to you."
PunchTornado 8y ago
meh, I develop software for a genomics company, biology being my childhood passion, still feels boring and unfulfilling as hell.

bluGill 8y ago

There is only so much need for programmers in environmental volunteering. There is a great need for programmers who can write software for insurance companies. I know a number of great programmers who have left those jobs because they are doing boring. The ones who remain find things to enjoy outside of work. Some love programming and are happy to be paid to do it, but most are just great programmers doing a boring job 9-5 and going home at night to something they love. The only thing they love about their job is it is 9-5, overtime is rare, and they have to take a two week paid vacation every year (a fraud prevention measure to make it hard to cover any wrong doing). Likewise, nobody is passionate about hauling my trash to the dump. (I have kids in diapers so my trash stinks) Nobody is passionate about cleaning septic systems. The jobs have to be done though. All of the above jobs have something in common: well paid compared the the level of skill required. The people who do them have learned to do their job, and they have learned to find something else in life to enjoy.

peterwwillis 8y ago
I could be inspired to haul trash. If I knew the system put in place was designed to get people to minimize their actual trash, that organic waste was being reused properly for compost, and that multi-stream recycling was in place, I would feel pretty good about what I was doing. Work in waste management: save the planet. I don't know how to get established cities to follow such a program, but Taiwan seems to have figured it out. https://www.wsj.com/articles/taiwan-the-worlds-geniuses-of-garbage-disposal-1463519134 https://www.wsj.com/articles/taiwan-the-worlds-geniuses-of-g...
- kolpa 8y ago
  Hauling trash in USA is a terrible job. Overflowing with criminals and safety hazards. https://features.propublica.org/sanitation-salvage/sanitation-salvage-accidents-new-york-city-commercial-carting-garbage/ https://features.propublica.org/sanitation-salvage/sanitatio...
  - 2trill2spill 8y ago
    I think there's quite a big difference between the trash business in New York City and most other places in the country.
_raoulcousins 8y ago
What do you mean by "(a fraud prevention measure to make it hard to cover any wrong doing)"?
- rpeden 8y ago
  It's not all that common for developers, but forced vacations are fairly normal in accounting and finance - or at least they were in another lifetime when I worked in accounting. There have been cases where an employee has been committing fraud, but it wasn't discovered for years because the person never took a day off and so was able to continually cover up their wrongdoing. There's a decent discussion of it here on Stack Exchange: https://security.stackexchange.com/questions/107060/mandatory-vacation-as-a-security-control https://security.stackexchange.com/questions/107060/mandator...
  - mikestew 8y ago
    but forced vacations are fairly normal in accounting and finance - or at least they were in another lifetime when I worked in accounting. It probably hasn't been ten years since my aunt's most recent husband got caught in that exact manner, and I'd frankly be surprised if it weren't still common, given that it appears to work. (As a footnote, it was an interesting phenomenon to watch. "He's an accountant at some no-name company, and she sells Mary Kay. Where the hell are these Bahama vacations and the big house coming from? Mary Kay didn't give her that Cadillac, she bought it because no one buys Mary Kay. I dunno, must be up to their eyeballs in debt." Of course, looking back now it was friggin' obvious. His unfortunate solution to the hammer that was soon to fall on his head involved a 12 gauge shotgun.)
hahamrfunnyguy 8y ago
Sure there will be boring tasks to do in every project, but there are usually interesting ones too. If you can have fun with your co-workers, it also makes boring work more enjoyable. The most boring job I ever held was working in an office supply store. The people were boring, the customers were boring (and there weren't that many of them). I even worked in a warehouse on a packing line. That was pretty boring work, but the staff there found ways to amuse themselves and it was always busy. The days went by quickly.

kaycebasques 8y ago

> Now you're doing something boring, but in service of a cause that is meaningful to you. I think this is a good balance. Another way to look at it is from a "theory of change" [1] mindset. I discovered this idea a few weeks ago, from a HN comment, I believe. You envision some type of change that you want to bring about in the world, and then you work backwards in concrete steps in order to figure out how to make it happen. What's cool about this is that it gives you a clear purpose for going outside of your comfort zone and learning new skills. E.g. maybe you're a programmer, and you want to get the US on renewable energy. You're good at programming, but through your analysis you realize that persuading people (politics) is the most likely path to your goal. So you start improving your interpersonal skills. [1]: http://www.aaronsw.com/weblog/theoryofchange http://www.aaronsw.com/weblog/theoryofchange As far as growth mindset, it's strange that the article said "Beyond that, there's not a clear way to develop a growth mindset about interests." The canonical book on the topic [2] offers many more ideas on how to cultivate growth mindset. [2]: https://www.amazon.com/Mindset-Psychology-Carol-S-Dweck/dp/0345472322 https://www.amazon.com/Mindset-Psychology-Carol-S-Dweck/dp/0...

s-shellfish 8y ago

> Now you're doing something boring, but in service of a cause that is meaningful to you. Finding your passion is much better advice than doing what you think people want you to be doing with your life. I honestly think that's all it means. Do something that connects to you. People don't like to think about being all alone in the world, but the hard truth of life is one day we might be. You don't want to stick yourself in a panopticon of memories reminding you of choices you didn't choose independently. It's not the worst thing to happen to a person, but it's very similar to the abstract functionality of PTSD. Trying to escape yourself while finding your own value system can be just as imprisoning, especially if your value system actually winds up aligning with whoever chose whatever for you. I've made these mistakes in life, so, trying to return to a version of myself where I had my own passion. But it just loops back around, and that's...it sucks. Finding stuff to do that resonates as crystal clear true to you is really, really important. Don't knock it because being respected and valued and admired by others is nice to experience. Here in an instant and gone in a flash. And if those things don't connect to you at core, it's really, really hard rebuilding yourself without going completely insane. It breaks you down and you have to build yourself back up again. Over and over. It seems to come at a cost I can't identify entirely. Sort of thing that makes you want to stare for a thousand miles and just wonder 'why'. And if you can't find anything in your life to be joyful and accepting about, it just leads to a silent variant of rage. Strong arguments, prickly, walled off people. This gets compounded if the only things you seem to enjoy may be a bit on the stigmatized side of things, or simply, not in line with current trends. So this cycle, of being broken and having to rebuild yourself, you don't want it to control you. You want to have control over it. Finding your passion, accepting it. Very important to being happy and being able to improve lives around you.

srmatto 8y ago

I respectfully disagree. I think this is precisely where the "follow your passion" advice logically concludes a lot of the time and it results in a painful search for gainful employment. I spent years trying to follow this mantra and it left me unfulfilled, confused, and resentful. As soon as I went back to doing what I am innately good at, I became much happier. I instead focused on improving my skills and having a positive impact at my workplace with the people I work with. This has lead to far more fulfillment than when I was "following my passion." I also would like to add that I think "follow your passion" is largely broken because its hard to know what that even is a lot of the time. And then taking something fleeting and attempting to build a life on top of it is reckless. This week I might enjoy cooking and trying to get better at that. Should I then drop everything and go to culinary school? This week I enjoy carpentry, should I start a carpentry business? Now its gardening, should I become a landscaper? etc...

peterwwillis 8y ago
Well first off, I'm sorry you had that experience, that sucks, and I'm glad you're better off now. I think what I'm suggesting is that if you have an idea that your passion might be gardening, you don't have to become a landscaper. You could work for a company that develops non-patented disease-resistant seeds, or a company that grows plants for sale in big box stores, or maybe even a small start-up that tries to connect small farmers that grow unique crops to restaurants that want to provide a unique menu. Maybe it should be re-worded as "try to combine your skills with your interests".
- kaitai 8y ago
  It is worth remembering that the skills and the interests need to be combined in your life, not every day at work. Maybe you are passionate about gardening so you have a good job that pays well and keeps summer hours, letting you spend your weekends gardening. I have a passion that I engage with for a living (math) and it's currently keeping me underpaid. I'm also very interested in art and so I go to museums, work on learning how to paint, etc -- and if it was my job, I'd stop liking it. I like it so much because it's a complement. Some passions are like hot sauce -- a sprinkling makes almost every food better, while a full bowl gives you the runs.

ryanackley 8y ago

I agree. The advice should read, "Find something you can be passionate about that you can also make a living at" Personally, I feel like people who take "find your passion" literally are just using the advice to rationalize their own entitlement.

ksenzee 8y ago

> ...Or, don't tell your kids what they should do I disagree here. Telling our kids what they should do is a good-sized chunk of a parent's job, all the way from "Don't touch that stove" to "Pick a public place to meet strangers from the internet." "Don't major in art history at a $30k/year school unless we win the lottery" is the same class of advice, and you can be sure my kids will hear it from me.

gascan 8y ago
"Don't major in art history at a $30k/year school unless we win the lottery" If you put it in precisely those terms, I would wager one of your kids will, of all possible career choices, choose to major in art history for exactly $30k/year.
- bumholio 8y ago
  Any parent will tell you that inducing a desired teenager behavior while maintaining the illusion of free will is a simple wording trick: "I would love to see you succeed in any career you choose; of course, society values things very materialistically, for example an art major will never afford a fancy car and clothes, a big house with a pool and trips around the world. But you will have your love of art and lots of art albums if that's what really maters to you."

PunchTornado 8y ago

meh, I develop software for a genomics company, biology being my childhood passion, still feels boring and unfulfilling as hell.