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Funnily enough I find organic street layouts easier to navigate as a tourist than grid systems. In an organic layout there are central roads that go to places o
by noelwelsh 8y ago
Funnily enough I find organic street layouts easier to navigate as a tourist than grid systems. In an organic layout there are central roads that go to places of interest and the smaller streets flow to the central roads. In a grids all the roads look the same (they have the same size for example) so I often can't work out how I'm oriented and wandering around doesn't necessarily lead to anywhere interesting.
I also find grids less satisfying to walk. I feel they favour cars over pedestrians. I'm always stopping for traffic lights in New York while I feel I can walk mostly without interruption in London. London roads are also more interesting because you don't know what's around the corner.
Conclusion: these are pretty graphs but I think the claims in the first post are overstated. Experiments are required.
- molf 8y agoAs a European, I agree. US cities are confusing to me because streets all look the same. I find it impossible to locate interesting areas without prior knowledge. Maybe what seems easiest to navigate depends on what you’re used to?
- noelwelsh 8y agoI think so. My US colleagues seem to find it very easy to get around unfamiliar US cities but seem to struggle in European cities. I expect we have very different unconscious navigation algorithms.
- bfirsh 8y agoI am from London and lived in the US for a bit. I struggled to navigate. I think it is because I navigate by modelling the shape of the streets. When all the streets are the same shape, that subconscious system stops working. I also tend to find I underestimate distances in grid systems. I think it’s because in European cities I estimate distance by the number of distinct shapes I can remember on the way there. In a grid, I think my brain smushes all those identical block shapes into one. In a similar way to how time flies when doing a repetitive task.
- ghaff 8y agoYou sort of need to know the [scale of] grid in question. In a similar vein, I find the Las Vegas Strip is incredibly disorienting with respect to distance. You're used to buildings being of size approximately X and in Vegas the casinos are 10X. So you think--oh, that's just a couple of buildings away. 30 minutes later you're still walking (in the sweltering heat).
- lotsofpulp 8y agoI found this out the hard way before google maps walking time calculator when I decided to suggest walking a group from Mirage to Rio to watch Penn and Teller. I was not popular that night, especially for those in heels.
- iammiles 8y agoTip for your next visit: The monorail runs on the east side of the the strip and stops off every few buildings or so. There's also a separate free tram that runs between Bellagio, Vdara, and Aria.
- ghaff 8y agoI am (mostly sadly) pretty well aquainted with Vegas. Unfortunately, the monorail/tram systems are pretty disjoint. And even if it just involves walking through a casino can still be quite a hike. And I, by no means mind walking, though there was the time I went to Vegas on a business trip and was on crutches with no weight on foot allowed. Though the high point was that a porter showed me how to use the crutches more effectively; he was an (aspiring?) ballet dancer who had apparently spent more than his share of time on crutches :-)
- TomMarius 8y agoWhat is the secret of crutches?
- xkgt 8y agoI had the same experience in Macau. The entire Cotai strip is just 3 blocks between Old Taipa and Coloane island. But you wouldn't consider crossing it on foot.
- Fnoord 8y agoIronically enough it appears to be very much in contrast with imperial (US) vs metric (EU, generally).
- cowsandmilk 8y ago> In a grids all the roads look the same (they have the same size) Does not have to be true and often is not true. Some places alternate alley (single lane, one way) with neighborhood (one lane each direction) and every ~4 neighborhood streets, have a larger street, either with wider lanes or more lanes. Grid does not have to mean all streets look the same or be of equal weight.
- hoorayimhelping 8y ago>In an organic layout there are central roads that go to places of interest and the smaller streets flow to the central roads That doesn't sound organic, it sounds like basic transportation planning and street hierarchy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Street_hierarchy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Street_hierarchy. Smaller roads flow into bigger roads which flow into main roads which flow into highways. "By contrast, in many regular, traditional grid plans, as laid out, higher order roads (e.g. arterials) are connected by through streets of both lower order levels (e.g. local and collector.) An ordering of roads and their classification can include several levels and finer distinctions as, for example, major and minor arterials or collectors."
- junke 8y agoOrganic does not mean random.
- seer 8y agoI think the same way,however there was one city I did enjoy navigating as a pedestrian, and it was a grid layout - Barcelona. I think its because the grid is just for the cars, as a pedestrian you can walk “in between” the grid parallels and there were strange walkways and “diagonal” streets etc. Such a unique place
- victormier 8y agoThat's just one of the neighborhoods though. But Barcelona's grid neighborhood Eixample it's a very interesting design: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eixample https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eixample
- sjwright 8y agoThis is one thing that Google Maps now solves very well, by highlighting popular areas in pale orange. While I prefer Apple Maps for walking and public transit directions, I must say I love Google Maps for providing the data to achieve strategic serendipity. Thirty minute walk back to the hotel? Let's detour down this parallel road, it looks like there's a lot going on there!
- nkrisc 8y agoHaving grown up in a city with a very well defined grid, Chicago, I mainly favor grid layouts. Here you can tell important facts about a location based solely on the address. Given an address, like 4012 N Pulaski, I immediately know how far it is from me in the North/South direction and also in which direction on that axis. I also know it's on the West side of the street. The only other important bit not included is how far in the East/West direction. So it's not perfect, but once you know which way, East or West, you're on your way.
- wenc 8y agoYep, I recently learned that Daniel Burnham designed them that way. The Great Fire of 1871 cleared out legacy street systems, so things could start anew. The diagonal transporters like Ogden, Milwaukee etc. mess me up though. Chicago grid https://www.domu.com/blog/decoding-the-chicago-street-grid-system https://www.domu.com/blog/decoding-the-chicago-street-grid-s...
- nkrisc 8y agoThe diagonals can be a little confusing, especially since they're numbered as if they're North/South, but unlike a true North/South street they have no fixed East/West number (Lincoln is 1600 W at Ashland but 2000 W at Damen). They always mess my wife up when she's driving as well (think easy right vs. hard right when approaching a three way intersection). What gets me is when driving on a diagonal and the intersecting streets bend right at the intersection so that they meet the diagonal at a 90 degree angle. That messes with my head because it feels like you're driving on one of the normal grid streets.
- jagath 8y agoI feel the same sentiment while walking old European cities vs modern cities. I found this tweet very helpful in understanding why I feel that way. The pictures are great, even if you don't agree with the thesis. https://twitter.com/wrathofgnon/status/883181352933236736 https://twitter.com/wrathofgnon/status/883181352933236736 "It is time for a thread on traditional urbanism, or town planning 13th-century style. I will dispel some myths of modern dis-urbanism...Traditional urbanism has short blocks. No building takes more than 3-4 seconds to walk past, providing interesting colors, shops, textures...Modern dis-urbanism means massive buildings, long block: takes minutes to walk past with nothing to distract or relieve the tedium. (Zürich) "
- noelwelsh 8y agoLove that post---great examples!
- muddyrivers 8y agoI have similar experiences in both systems. Growing up in China, it is easy for me to navigate in US cities. Beijing is primarily of grid system. The first time I went to Europe, I got quite lost in the city (Madrid). The second time was in Paris. I got some free time. So I walked around aimlessly in some neighborhoods, away from the popular tourist sites, appreciating the beauty, the history and the local people I ran across. It brought back the feeling I walked around the Hutongs in Beijing, which I enjoyed so much. Since then, I have been feeling very comfortable in navigating European cities with organic layout. In my case, it does seems there are two navigation systems, and I make subconscious switches based on the layouts.
- smogcutter 8y agoFunnily enough, Paris isn't a particularly organic layout. It was centrally redesigned and "modernized" starting in the reign of Napoleon III. For sure it was designed with horses and pedestrians in mind, so very different from most US cities, but also different from someplace like central Prague, etc.
- xapata 8y agoThey may have torn down a bunch of buildings to pave the boulevards, but in between it's a wonderful mix of little streets. Best of both worlds. Get lost in the neighborhood and eventually you'll stumble back onto a boulevard where you can get your bearings.
- Sir_Cmpwn 8y agoOptimising for tourists is pretty lame, they don't have to live there. In my opinion, I think a balance between the approaches works well. I'm in Philadelphia. I really appreciate that anyone can tell me some event is at "14th and Locust" and I know how to get there without directions. At the same time, roads like Ben Franklin Parkway are wide and open enough, with multiple courtyards along its length, that it opens up a larger part of the city for people to get their bearings in and get a larger part of the city in their visual field. Broad and Market street do the same thing, to a lesser extent.
- noelwelsh 8y agoThe reason I said "for tourists" is because a local will learn the layout eventually regardless of what it is. I don't think my experiences in, say, Birmingham where I lived for a decade are comparable to my experiences in Philly, which I have visited once for a few days.
- brlewis 8y agoI've been local to Boston for decades and haven't truly learned the layout. I can get to any given place, but without consulting the map I'll often choose a suboptimal route. It's hard to stop my brain from forcing the layout into a grid, which it very much is not.
- listenallyall 8y agoYou live in Center City. The rest of Philadelphia has a very organic layout. Can you get to Frankford & Castor without directions? Germantown & Chelten? Anywhere in NE Philly?
- Sir_Cmpwn 8y agoYou have a point. However, I am new enough to Philly and have explored those areas little enough that I'm not sure I can be a good judge of them.
- Nav_Panel 8y agoYeah -- the original intent behind Manhattan's grid system was not some sort of usability or urbanist thought, but to "open up" the land for real estate speculation. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commissioners%27_Plan_of_1811 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commissioners%27_Plan_of_1811