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Companies treat programmers as costs that should be minimized. They manage programmers like children (toys and treats) or stenographers(typing pools) because it

Companies treat programmers as costs that should be minimized. They manage programmers like children (toys and treats) or stenographers(typing pools) because it is cheap. Whereas, lawyers in law firms are considered revenue generators and they are treated that way. When I switched from programming to lawyering, one of the biggest differences I noticed was how the law firm staff and office manager were always trying to make it easier for me to generate billable hours. Years later it still feels weird having "staff" that take of care you and work hard to remove obstacles that may interfere with your work. I can't even make my own copies w/o a staff person offering to do that for me. Staff that catch me refilling the coffee pot will offer to do it for me. And, the million dollar view from my high-rise office still takes my breath away. Now instead of feeling like a tool/plebe I feel like a milk cow. The law firm's entire setup is to keep me working efficiently (not that its perfect but they try).

notyourwork 8y ago
Very interesting, as someone who is interested in law and currently an SDE I would love to hear more about your transition. Did you all along plan on this, did it come after your engineering career, at what point did you become an attorney. For reference, I am 8 years into a software engineering career and heavily considering going to law school.
- jbronn 8y ago
  Do not go to law school unless it's a passion that you're willing to sacrifice financial and mental well-being for. It's only "worth it" if you're able to attend an elite (top 10) institution -- otherwise, in an industry obsessed with status and prestige, you'll end up on the wrong side of the bimodal salary curve¹ struggling to pay your six figure student debt. BigLaw, IP (patents), and tax attorneys are the only specialties that make decent money. Once laden with debt, 2000 billable hours is standard at most firms, meaning that 50+ hour weeks are the norm. Lawyers are unhappy: alcoholism² and depression³ are rampant in the profession. Source: Lawyer that hated writing patents and went back to tech. ¹ https://www.nalp.org/salarydistrib https://www.nalp.org/salarydistrib ² 20+% of lawyers have alcohol problems: https://www.americanbar.org/publications/youraba/2016/march-2016/study-identifies-high-rate-of-problem-drinking-among-lawyers--ne.html https://www.americanbar.org/publications/youraba/2016/march-... ³ 4x rate of depression and highest suicide rate among occupations: https://www.americanbar.org/publications/gp_solo/2015/march-april/out_the_darkness_overcoming_depression_among_lawyers.html https://www.americanbar.org/publications/gp_solo/2015/march-...
  - notyourwork 8y ago
    This doesn't really answer any of the questions I asked but thanks for the perspective. I'm not worried about the financial cost and planning on focusing on IP law in the company I currently work at.
    - jbronn 8y ago
      You must be independently wealthy to not worry about a $150k+ outlay for school. I obtained a CS degree, worked in tech for several years, and decided to attend law school to study IP like you’re intending. I attended one of best schools for IP, and worked writing patents. Despite a great law firm and clients, the work was not stimulating and a net drain on society. I left to start my own company in tech again. My work as a core Django developer during school was more fulfilling intellectually and professionally. Studying law will not bring the prestige you’re seeking. I didn’t listen to the lawyers who told me that either.
      - notyourwork 8y ago
        I guess you are set on assuming who is asking the question. Cost isn't a concern in my decision, I can pay for it out of pocket and I'm not seeking prestige. Thanks for your time.
- pnw_hazor 8y ago
  I didn't plan on it but I always considered LS an option. I have a Computer Engineering degree and programmed for 10+ years, mainly at startups that didn't pan out with some contracting thrown in there too. During that time some of my friends went into IP law and were doing well. I eventually reached my last straw with startups and bit the bullet and went to LS at night while doing programming. IMO industry experience is more important than LS rank/performance for patent attorneys. (I went to a local third tier LS school and had no problem.) It is your understanding of the technical subject matter that will set you apart from other patent attorneys especially from those w/o much industry experience. That said, I only work on computer/software patents, never gadgets or circuits. Downsides include: drafting good patents is more exhausting for me than programming; the job can get grindy at times; and it also kind of sucks being in the service industry, dealing with those pesky clients can sometimes be a hassle. Being a diva programmer was more fun in that aspect. Also, LS is expensive, my school charges about 2X what it did when I went. I went at night and worked at programming jobs during the day. This reduced my opportunity cost by at least $400K. Upsides include: meeting a lot of smart people; learning about what they are building; flexible hours; nice office; decent pay; not having to build the inventions -- we just talk about cool parts and don't have to spend n-months or years getting them work; and not having to program for work.
  - jbronn 8y ago
    Another upside: after the bar, no one is going to make you whiteboard the rule against perpetuities.
  - notyourwork 8y ago
    Thanks for insight, I tend to agree that industry experience is more valuable then going to a top 10 law school. Especially after working at a big 4 and seeing lots of people from top tier CS programs provide subpar engineering solutions.
sorine 8y ago
This is also true in the accounting industry. Internal accountants are cost-centers and not viewed as value-add departments, whereas in public accounting each accountant is a revenue-generator. Public accounting pay is generally higher until you reach the manager level of internal accounting, and it is amazing how much more willing the organization was willing to make us happy and more billable. Internally, it seemed like the less management saw of us, the better.
ghaff 8y ago
One suspects that businesses in general have tilted too far towards having highly paid professionals doing everything self-service just because they can and the costs are sort of hidden. Playing travel agent for an hour suddenly makes a lot less sense when it keeps you from billing out at $500/hr. for some client. ADDED: The one time I did some legal work (for an expert witness report) the ticking clock made me very aware of what was a good use of my time and what wasn't.
- pnw_hazor 8y ago
  More than once my boss has had to remind me that we pay the staff to do such-and-such so I can keep billing.
bshoemaker 8y ago
Ah yes, Google & Facebook et. al. really seem to be minimizing their costs by spending hundreds of thousands per developer on salary and millions upon millions in toys and perks. What world are you living in?
- pnw_hazor 8y ago
  They minimize where they can. They would pay $25/hr if they could get away with it. They used to break the law to do it (anti-poaching agreements). edit-to-add: Why do you think they ignore the research that says open offices are not healthy or productive? Because they can get devs to stay using less expensive means, such as, increased compensation and treats.
- oblio 8y ago
  Toys and perks are cheap and high impact. They’re from “Tricking employees 101”. Developer salaries are high but revenues per developer are huge for these companies.
- Tharkun 8y ago
  Most of us don't work for Google or FB. Most of us aren't even in the US. I can definitely see laywer or banker types getting all the perks the parent mentioned, while devs are treated like overpaid secretaries.

notyourwork 8y ago

Very interesting, as someone who is interested in law and currently an SDE I would love to hear more about your transition. Did you all along plan on this, did it come after your engineering career, at what point did you become an attorney. For reference, I am 8 years into a software engineering career and heavily considering going to law school.

jbronn 8y ago
Do not go to law school unless it's a passion that you're willing to sacrifice financial and mental well-being for. It's only "worth it" if you're able to attend an elite (top 10) institution -- otherwise, in an industry obsessed with status and prestige, you'll end up on the wrong side of the bimodal salary curve¹ struggling to pay your six figure student debt. BigLaw, IP (patents), and tax attorneys are the only specialties that make decent money. Once laden with debt, 2000 billable hours is standard at most firms, meaning that 50+ hour weeks are the norm. Lawyers are unhappy: alcoholism² and depression³ are rampant in the profession. Source: Lawyer that hated writing patents and went back to tech. ¹ https://www.nalp.org/salarydistrib https://www.nalp.org/salarydistrib ² 20+% of lawyers have alcohol problems: https://www.americanbar.org/publications/youraba/2016/march-2016/study-identifies-high-rate-of-problem-drinking-among-lawyers--ne.html https://www.americanbar.org/publications/youraba/2016/march-... ³ 4x rate of depression and highest suicide rate among occupations: https://www.americanbar.org/publications/gp_solo/2015/march-april/out_the_darkness_overcoming_depression_among_lawyers.html https://www.americanbar.org/publications/gp_solo/2015/march-...
- notyourwork 8y ago
  This doesn't really answer any of the questions I asked but thanks for the perspective. I'm not worried about the financial cost and planning on focusing on IP law in the company I currently work at.
  - jbronn 8y ago
    You must be independently wealthy to not worry about a $150k+ outlay for school. I obtained a CS degree, worked in tech for several years, and decided to attend law school to study IP like you’re intending. I attended one of best schools for IP, and worked writing patents. Despite a great law firm and clients, the work was not stimulating and a net drain on society. I left to start my own company in tech again. My work as a core Django developer during school was more fulfilling intellectually and professionally. Studying law will not bring the prestige you’re seeking. I didn’t listen to the lawyers who told me that either.
    - notyourwork 8y ago
      I guess you are set on assuming who is asking the question. Cost isn't a concern in my decision, I can pay for it out of pocket and I'm not seeking prestige. Thanks for your time.
pnw_hazor 8y ago
I didn't plan on it but I always considered LS an option. I have a Computer Engineering degree and programmed for 10+ years, mainly at startups that didn't pan out with some contracting thrown in there too. During that time some of my friends went into IP law and were doing well. I eventually reached my last straw with startups and bit the bullet and went to LS at night while doing programming. IMO industry experience is more important than LS rank/performance for patent attorneys. (I went to a local third tier LS school and had no problem.) It is your understanding of the technical subject matter that will set you apart from other patent attorneys especially from those w/o much industry experience. That said, I only work on computer/software patents, never gadgets or circuits. Downsides include: drafting good patents is more exhausting for me than programming; the job can get grindy at times; and it also kind of sucks being in the service industry, dealing with those pesky clients can sometimes be a hassle. Being a diva programmer was more fun in that aspect. Also, LS is expensive, my school charges about 2X what it did when I went. I went at night and worked at programming jobs during the day. This reduced my opportunity cost by at least $400K. Upsides include: meeting a lot of smart people; learning about what they are building; flexible hours; nice office; decent pay; not having to build the inventions -- we just talk about cool parts and don't have to spend n-months or years getting them work; and not having to program for work.
- jbronn 8y ago
  Another upside: after the bar, no one is going to make you whiteboard the rule against perpetuities.
- notyourwork 8y ago
  Thanks for insight, I tend to agree that industry experience is more valuable then going to a top 10 law school. Especially after working at a big 4 and seeing lots of people from top tier CS programs provide subpar engineering solutions.

sorine 8y ago

This is also true in the accounting industry. Internal accountants are cost-centers and not viewed as value-add departments, whereas in public accounting each accountant is a revenue-generator. Public accounting pay is generally higher until you reach the manager level of internal accounting, and it is amazing how much more willing the organization was willing to make us happy and more billable. Internally, it seemed like the less management saw of us, the better.

ghaff 8y ago

One suspects that businesses in general have tilted too far towards having highly paid professionals doing everything self-service just because they can and the costs are sort of hidden. Playing travel agent for an hour suddenly makes a lot less sense when it keeps you from billing out at $500/hr. for some client. ADDED: The one time I did some legal work (for an expert witness report) the ticking clock made me very aware of what was a good use of my time and what wasn't.

pnw_hazor 8y ago
More than once my boss has had to remind me that we pay the staff to do such-and-such so I can keep billing.

bshoemaker 8y ago

Ah yes, Google & Facebook et. al. really seem to be minimizing their costs by spending hundreds of thousands per developer on salary and millions upon millions in toys and perks. What world are you living in?

pnw_hazor 8y ago
They minimize where they can. They would pay $25/hr if they could get away with it. They used to break the law to do it (anti-poaching agreements). edit-to-add: Why do you think they ignore the research that says open offices are not healthy or productive? Because they can get devs to stay using less expensive means, such as, increased compensation and treats.
oblio 8y ago
Toys and perks are cheap and high impact. They’re from “Tricking employees 101”. Developer salaries are high but revenues per developer are huge for these companies.
Tharkun 8y ago
Most of us don't work for Google or FB. Most of us aren't even in the US. I can definitely see laywer or banker types getting all the perks the parent mentioned, while devs are treated like overpaid secretaries.