7 ms·

Reminded of this timeless Carl Sagan quote: "We live in a society exquisitely dependent on science and technology, in which hardly anyone knows anything about

by gdubs 8y ago

Reminded of this timeless Carl Sagan quote: "We live in a society exquisitely dependent on science and technology, in which hardly anyone knows anything about science and technology."

enraged_camel 8y ago
Asimov’s Foundation series is an excellent commentary on this very phenomenon. One of the antagonists is a galactic empire that is technologically advanced, but has been stagnating and decaying slowly as those in power start viewing scientists with disdain and distrust. Over time the empire loses the ability to develop new technology, and ends up with those who can only maintain/repair existing technology (which eventually becomes so old that it is scrapped).
- bitwize 8y ago
  I'm a bit reminded of the Zentraedi from Macross, who know how to fly and fight with advanced spaceships/mechs, but not how to repair them or how they work. Except in that case it's because their patron race, the Protoculture, deliberately kept them dependent; Protoculture factories supplied as many ships and weapons as the Zentraedi might need, meanwhile, the average Zentraedi was kept at about a five-year-old human's level of cognitive development. (After Zentraedi culture integrated with human culture (thanks to a frickin' idol singer), adult Zentraedi were at cognitive parity with adult humans.) All of which makes you wonder: on actual Earth, is there a class of tech-company Morlocks keeping the disposable-income Eloi dependent with their endless supply of disposable gadgets?
  - wavefunction 8y ago
    The Zentraedi were cloned super-soldiers designed to serve the Protoculture and nothing else. Then the Protoculture lost control of their weapons. Lin Meimei I guess awakened the emotions they'd never required nor experienced before.
  - 1996 8y ago
    Good catch! It reminded me the same thing, Macross. There is indeed something keeping working class humans dependants: a focus on growth at all costs (including population growth). It is pervasive (the ideology is reinforced with ads) and makes you desire for example the latest iPhone X. With a permanent growth, the basic problem is all humans are still born with a dependancy on housing and food (and other fancier things) that are in short supply. To attain these, humans need to work. Their work is used not just to maintain the basics, but to fuel growth. Some people (mostly millenials) have found a solution: leave cheap, remain childless. It causes many people to freak out about the economy, the birth rate, and how more immigration is needed to maintain growth. People don't really want that, and end up voting funny.
    - SolaceQuantum 8y ago
      I would think millenials actually desire growth as much as any other generation desires it. That they don’t implies they may not be able to.
    - mjevans 8y ago
      "The social contract", how an individual and society interact (and are depended upon each other), is broken. In the old days if someone didn't like how things were going there were spaces with (far less) people that they could go off in to and do their own thing; if it mattered that much. In less old days someone was part of a community. They did things that supported the community and return the community supported them. In recent history people were part of national communities, there were careers with 'retirement' plans and advancement tracks that enabled someone to achieve most of their potential if they wanted it. Today everyone wants a short term solution with no long term planning or costs. There is no community because you don't know if you're going to be there in 5 or 10 years. There is no investment because you don't know if you're going to be there in 5 or 10 years. There is no sense of belonging because there is nothing to belong to. Everyone is a disposable cog in a machine that doesn't care about them. - People have always voted funny, and I think that's what has gotten us where we are now.
      - 1996 8y ago
- eli_gottlieb 8y ago
  Eh, that kinda boils down the entire social, political, and technological arc of Asimov's Galactic Empire into the caricature we later got in the form of the Adeptus Mechanicus.
- bjelkeman-again 8y ago
  > those in power start viewing scientists with disdain and distrust Are we talking about a novel or the current government in power in some prominent countries at the moment?
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - madengr 8y ago
    Well the good part is the, the scientists (aka priests) create a religion to control the primitives.
- mbroncano 8y ago
  Having also grown up with Asimov novels, recently I was pleasantly surprised to discover Vernor Vinge's A Deepness In the Sky[1] which contains also a discussion on the very same topic. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Deepness_in_the_Sky https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Deepness_in_the_Sky
- avip 8y ago
  Profession also discusses the same theme and it's shorter (IMO his best short story, and in a way prophecies how modern SW development works).
- tootie 8y ago
  On that topic, I think you can directly equate Behavioral Economics to Psychohistory. In fact, fellow Nobel winner Paul Krugman claims to have become an economist because it was the closest he could come to being a pyschohistorian in real life.
- shostack 8y ago
  This is very much a theme in the Warhammer 40k universe. Tech priests "pray to the Omnissiah" while applying various sacred ointments (lubrication for parts?) to machinery and such to get tech to work [1]. [1] http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Tech-Priest http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Tech-Priest
Symmetry 8y ago
Our civilization has attained its complexity by encompassing such knowledge that it would take a million lifetimes to learn all of it. I have made my career learning about technology and learning about science is a great hobby of mine. But I have only the dimmest understanding of even how much there is to know.
- rogerbinns 8y ago
  That is fine! In economics there is a famous essay I, Pencil[1] explaining that no one knows how to make a pencil. Sure you put some graphite in some wood, but how do you make graphite? And how do you make the machines that make it. And how do you make the components that go into that. Or updating this, no one knows how to make a computer mouse. (You'd need some hydro-carbons for the plastic, machines, machines that make machines etc.) In reality people know bits about small bits (think of every person involved in making a mouse back through all materials). And yet without coordination these folks all collaborated to make a mouse. I'm an optimist because people all over the world are making the world better. The rate at which it is happening is picking up, and in general benefiting more and more people. We use communication (including Amazon and Facebook), markets, social movements, regulation etc as feedback loops to find and improve. The one thing I can guarantee is that there will keep being more to understand, and that as an individual you will keep understanding a smaller and smaller proportion of it. I enjoy perpectives from Matt Ridley about this (eg The Rational Optimist book) and his Ted talk[2]. A nice tidbit is that King Louis XIV of France had about 500 people preparing meals for him each night. You can go to town and have the same, with far better food and service than he had. By historic standards, we live like royalty, all because we don't understand everything. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I,_Pencil https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I,_Pencil [2] https://www.ted.com/talks/matt_ridley_when_ideas_have_sex https://www.ted.com/talks/matt_ridley_when_ideas_have_sex
  - cercatrova 8y ago
    There is a YouTube channel[1] that discusses making things such as a hamburger from scratch, much like your pencil example. [1] https://youtube.com/channel/UCfIqCzQJXvYj9ssCoHq327g https://youtube.com/channel/UCfIqCzQJXvYj9ssCoHq327g
Koshkin 8y ago
Actually, we depend on many things (not just science/tech) most people do not understand.
agumonkey 8y ago
I always found this odd. Maybe civilization as a group has progressed in knowledge of the universe, but the populations are in yet another form of religion. A reincarnation of plato's cave.
deathanatos 8y ago
I am particularly fond of this sketch by Dara O'Briain on essentially this topic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVxOb8-d7Ic https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVxOb8-d7Ic

by gdubs 8y ago

Reminded of this timeless Carl Sagan quote: "We live in a society exquisitely dependent on science and technology, in which hardly anyone knows anything about science and technology."

enraged_camel 8y ago

Asimov’s Foundation series is an excellent commentary on this very phenomenon. One of the antagonists is a galactic empire that is technologically advanced, but has been stagnating and decaying slowly as those in power start viewing scientists with disdain and distrust. Over time the empire loses the ability to develop new technology, and ends up with those who can only maintain/repair existing technology (which eventually becomes so old that it is scrapped).

bitwize 8y ago
I'm a bit reminded of the Zentraedi from Macross, who know how to fly and fight with advanced spaceships/mechs, but not how to repair them or how they work. Except in that case it's because their patron race, the Protoculture, deliberately kept them dependent; Protoculture factories supplied as many ships and weapons as the Zentraedi might need, meanwhile, the average Zentraedi was kept at about a five-year-old human's level of cognitive development. (After Zentraedi culture integrated with human culture (thanks to a frickin' idol singer), adult Zentraedi were at cognitive parity with adult humans.) All of which makes you wonder: on actual Earth, is there a class of tech-company Morlocks keeping the disposable-income Eloi dependent with their endless supply of disposable gadgets?
- wavefunction 8y ago
  The Zentraedi were cloned super-soldiers designed to serve the Protoculture and nothing else. Then the Protoculture lost control of their weapons. Lin Meimei I guess awakened the emotions they'd never required nor experienced before.
- 1996 8y ago
  Good catch! It reminded me the same thing, Macross. There is indeed something keeping working class humans dependants: a focus on growth at all costs (including population growth). It is pervasive (the ideology is reinforced with ads) and makes you desire for example the latest iPhone X. With a permanent growth, the basic problem is all humans are still born with a dependancy on housing and food (and other fancier things) that are in short supply. To attain these, humans need to work. Their work is used not just to maintain the basics, but to fuel growth. Some people (mostly millenials) have found a solution: leave cheap, remain childless. It causes many people to freak out about the economy, the birth rate, and how more immigration is needed to maintain growth. People don't really want that, and end up voting funny.
  - SolaceQuantum 8y ago
    I would think millenials actually desire growth as much as any other generation desires it. That they don’t implies they may not be able to.
  - mjevans 8y ago
    "The social contract", how an individual and society interact (and are depended upon each other), is broken. In the old days if someone didn't like how things were going there were spaces with (far less) people that they could go off in to and do their own thing; if it mattered that much. In less old days someone was part of a community. They did things that supported the community and return the community supported them. In recent history people were part of national communities, there were careers with 'retirement' plans and advancement tracks that enabled someone to achieve most of their potential if they wanted it. Today everyone wants a short term solution with no long term planning or costs. There is no community because you don't know if you're going to be there in 5 or 10 years. There is no investment because you don't know if you're going to be there in 5 or 10 years. There is no sense of belonging because there is nothing to belong to. Everyone is a disposable cog in a machine that doesn't care about them. - People have always voted funny, and I think that's what has gotten us where we are now.
    - 1996 8y ago
eli_gottlieb 8y ago
Eh, that kinda boils down the entire social, political, and technological arc of Asimov's Galactic Empire into the caricature we later got in the form of the Adeptus Mechanicus.
bjelkeman-again 8y ago
> those in power start viewing scientists with disdain and distrust Are we talking about a novel or the current government in power in some prominent countries at the moment?
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- madengr 8y ago
  Well the good part is the, the scientists (aka priests) create a religion to control the primitives.
mbroncano 8y ago
Having also grown up with Asimov novels, recently I was pleasantly surprised to discover Vernor Vinge's A Deepness In the Sky[1] which contains also a discussion on the very same topic. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Deepness_in_the_Sky https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Deepness_in_the_Sky
avip 8y ago
Profession also discusses the same theme and it's shorter (IMO his best short story, and in a way prophecies how modern SW development works).
tootie 8y ago
On that topic, I think you can directly equate Behavioral Economics to Psychohistory. In fact, fellow Nobel winner Paul Krugman claims to have become an economist because it was the closest he could come to being a pyschohistorian in real life.
shostack 8y ago
This is very much a theme in the Warhammer 40k universe. Tech priests "pray to the Omnissiah" while applying various sacred ointments (lubrication for parts?) to machinery and such to get tech to work [1]. [1] http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Tech-Priest http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Tech-Priest

Symmetry 8y ago

Our civilization has attained its complexity by encompassing such knowledge that it would take a million lifetimes to learn all of it. I have made my career learning about technology and learning about science is a great hobby of mine. But I have only the dimmest understanding of even how much there is to know.

rogerbinns 8y ago
That is fine! In economics there is a famous essay I, Pencil[1] explaining that no one knows how to make a pencil. Sure you put some graphite in some wood, but how do you make graphite? And how do you make the machines that make it. And how do you make the components that go into that. Or updating this, no one knows how to make a computer mouse. (You'd need some hydro-carbons for the plastic, machines, machines that make machines etc.) In reality people know bits about small bits (think of every person involved in making a mouse back through all materials). And yet without coordination these folks all collaborated to make a mouse. I'm an optimist because people all over the world are making the world better. The rate at which it is happening is picking up, and in general benefiting more and more people. We use communication (including Amazon and Facebook), markets, social movements, regulation etc as feedback loops to find and improve. The one thing I can guarantee is that there will keep being more to understand, and that as an individual you will keep understanding a smaller and smaller proportion of it. I enjoy perpectives from Matt Ridley about this (eg The Rational Optimist book) and his Ted talk[2]. A nice tidbit is that King Louis XIV of France had about 500 people preparing meals for him each night. You can go to town and have the same, with far better food and service than he had. By historic standards, we live like royalty, all because we don't understand everything. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I,_Pencil https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I,_Pencil [2] https://www.ted.com/talks/matt_ridley_when_ideas_have_sex https://www.ted.com/talks/matt_ridley_when_ideas_have_sex
- cercatrova 8y ago
  There is a YouTube channel[1] that discusses making things such as a hamburger from scratch, much like your pencil example. [1] https://youtube.com/channel/UCfIqCzQJXvYj9ssCoHq327g https://youtube.com/channel/UCfIqCzQJXvYj9ssCoHq327g

Koshkin 8y ago

Actually, we depend on many things (not just science/tech) most people do not understand.

agumonkey 8y ago

I always found this odd. Maybe civilization as a group has progressed in knowledge of the universe, but the populations are in yet another form of religion. A reincarnation of plato's cave.

deathanatos 8y ago

I am particularly fond of this sketch by Dara O'Briain on essentially this topic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVxOb8-d7Ic https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVxOb8-d7Ic