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I’m glad to see that Apple has finally updated its MacBook Pro line, but it’s a little too late for me. After using Macs for nearly 12 years, I bought a Dell X

I’m glad to see that Apple has finally updated its MacBook Pro line, but it’s a little too late for me. After using Macs for nearly 12 years, I bought a Dell XPS 15 9570 a week after WWDC 2018 (I couldn’t put off a new computer purchase any longer), and I couldn’t be happier. It turns out that Windows 10 really shines on a computer with six processor cores, a 4K display, and a NVMe SSD, a dramatic improvement from the refurbished ThinkPad T430 I used with a spinning hard disk and a 1366x768 display. Windows 10 shines on top-of-the-line hardware, and I’ve found the experience to be quite competitive to macOS so far for my needs. Granted, I’m still getting used to the Windows ecosystem again after being away from it for 12 years, and there are still some aspects of Windows 10 that annoy me (namely the prevelance of ads), but other than that it’s quite an improvement from my Windows XP days. Anyway, I’m pleased that Apple updated its MacBook Pro lineup today, and I hope that Apple will start regularly updating its Macs again. Competition is very important in the personal computing marketplace. I’m glad that Windows 10 is working well for me, and I hope that Apple will still be a force in computing so that way Microsoft won’t get lazy again like they did in the dark ages of Internet Explorer 6. I have a Mac Pro I still use regularly as a desktop at home, and so I still have one foot in the Mac ecosystem.

scarface74 8y ago
I have a Dell 2n1 for both my work laptop and my personal laptop. I have no problem with either. For the last 20+ years I’ve been exclusively a Windows Developer. But lately as I’ve moved to cloud implementations, Docker and cross platform languages, the “Microsoft Tax” is starting to hit home in terms of costs and resources. My next personal computer will be a Mac. I’ve had a few in the past. But it will either be a 5K iMac or a hopefully updated Mac Mini. With the Mac you get a true Unix environment and the flexibility to develop for any platform - .Net Core, Android, iOS, etc. and in a pinch you can run Windows.
- NHern031 8y ago
  Out of curiosity, have you had a chance to explore the Windows Subsystem for Linux (WSL)? WSL allows you to run your favorite linux distro with access to most command-line tools, utilities, and so on[0]. I have been a .NET developer for about 5 years now and recently began working in Ruby. The WSL had allowed me to effortlessly set up my Ruby dev environment, while still maintaining Windows 10 as my main OS of choice. While the WSL might not be a full on replacement to a linux OS, it is definitely a neat addition to Windows 10. [0] https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/wsl/install-win10 https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/wsl/install-win10
  - scarface74 8y ago
    It's not so much about development. Even if I did move over to Mac OS, I would still probably use the same or similar tool set - Visual Studio Code for everything except .Net Core. For .Net Core I would probably use JetBrain's Rider. It's about deployment. Anytime you use Windows in a cloud hosted environment, you end up spending more on licensing and needing larger instances -- increasing the costs and startup time. I can easily development on Windows and auto deploy on Linux instances when I'm using either Python, C#, or NodeJS. But if I am going to be using Unix like environments anyway for deployment, why not use a Unix environment for development? MacOS gives you the best of both worlds -- a Unix environment for development and polish for everything else.
    - licyeus 8y ago
      That polish has slipped of late, at least with MacOS itself. I used Macs professionally for 14 years but switched to a Thinkpad+Ubuntu 4 months ago and haven't missed much. If you're going to invest time in the switch, I'd recommend giving Linux on desktop a try, as MacOS has been trending the wrong direction for years.
      - scarface74 8y ago
        Ubuntu still doesn’t have the commercial software support, the hardware support, and more finicky than MacOS. Most importantly. You the lose the flexibility of developing for two of the four major platform targets -MacOS and iOS. I don’t see a future of developing for MacOS but that may change with Apple’s announced efforts of unifying the APIs for Mac and iOS.
    - RussianCow 8y ago
      With tools like Vagrant and Docker, this is a solved problem. Use whatever OS you want for development, but the dev environment will still run on Linux, isolated from the rest of your system.
      - scarface74 8y ago
dijit 8y ago
Echoing this sentiment, got a precision 5520 pre-loaded with Ubuntu and it's been a real champ. The build-quality is on-par with Apple and the fact that I still have HDMI/USB-A has been a life-saver a whole bunch of times. There's one other thing that I like too; it's linux. If I bought a macbook I'd definitely leave OSX on it, OSX is a decent system but the lack of decent window manager, the fact that I can't navigate with just a keyboard and the fact that I don't have the ability to mount linux-y/windows-y filesystems except fat is an annoyance too. But they're not annoying enough to make a good Mac Laptop a half-decent linux laptop.
- virtualwhys 8y ago
  How's the fan noise on the 5520 during basic usage? Browser, email client, text editor, etc. Have an old M4700 here, thinking of upgrading to the 5530, but am not sure what thermal effects of going slimmer/lighter has had on the new design.
  - dijit 8y ago
    For easy tasks it's silent, it's very rare the fans roar, but they do roar when doing something that pins cores at 100%. (example: compressing things for more than 3~ minutes with xz) Once the fans are spinning it's rather loud but around the same level as a 15" macbook pro (which my colleague has)
- asselinpaul 8y ago
  I have found chunkwm to be an enjoyable window manager for macOS: https://koekeishiya.github.io/chunkwm/ https://koekeishiya.github.io/chunkwm/
  - slantyyz 8y ago
    When I was still on OSX, I loved Moom: https://manytricks.com/moom/ https://manytricks.com/moom/
pythonaut_16 8y ago
What kind of development are you doing on it? Have you found a good workflow yet? I've given up running Linux natively on my computers and I'm trying to find the best Windows 10 workflow
- linguae 8y ago
  I'm still in the process of completely moving my workflow to my Dell XPS 15, but my occupation is computer science research, particularly in the area of distributed systems. My day-to-day tasks involve reading and annotating academic papers, writing code (usually in C and Python, but sometimes I use C++ and Java), writing papers in LaTeX, and making presentations (on my Mac I used Keynote but I use PowerPoint in Windows). So far I'm able to do my work using WSL. At times my work involves interacting with the OS kernel, and on my Mac I sometimes find myself using a Linux or FreeBSD VM to do my work rather than programming directly on macOS. For these tasks Windows 10 with the WSL can replace macOS, although sometimes I need to use a Linux or FreeBSD VM. To be honest, I could probably get away with doing my work on a 2001 PowerBook G4 Titanium if it weren't for the browser situation for PowerPC Macs these days, but I love having a powerful yet lightweight laptop with a six-core Intel Core i7-8750H, a 4K screen, and a fast SSD at my disposal.
0xcafecafe 8y ago
I thing I like the macbook for is the longevity. My refurb 2014 Mac Pro still boots up faster than my new XPS from the same year with equivalent hardware. Also, almost no loss in performance as opposed to the XPS. I hope the newer windows machines up their ante in that regard so when my mac pro kicks the bucket, I have something good to go to. With the ugly touchbar and no magsafe charge, the new macbook has lost its appeal for me.
tartrate 8y ago
I decided to leave Apple a while ago too, and a decision like that usually lasts many years.
- slantyyz 8y ago
  I'm on a weird cycle of switching every 10 years or so. Mid 80s to mid 90s: Apple 2 and Mac Mid 90s to mid 00's: Windows Mid 00s to Mid 10s: OSX Mid 10s to Present: Windows 8/10
dingo_bat 8y ago
> Windows 10 really shines on a computer with six processor cores, a 4K display, and a NVMe SSD I have anecdotally found that just replacing a spinning disk with a nice SSD is enough for win10 to shine.
- djaychela 8y ago
  Me too. I have an old ThinkPad that I use for car diagnostics. Cheap Gumtree buy, with Win10 and a standard HD. Put a spare 120GB SSD in it, and it's now really usable - previously it was like thick treacle. Win10 seems to be very heavy on drive use?
ta848347 8y ago
> (namely the prevelance of ads) Where are all these ads that people complain about? Is it the half pre-installed apps that come with your computer that you can promptly uninstall?
- SyneRyder 8y ago
  They're in a few different places, but it will sometimes show ads in the Start Menu for apps you can buy on the Windows Store. It also nags you quite often to buy a subscription to Office 365 or OneDrive. You can turn most of the ads off: https://www.pcgamer.com/how-to-ditch-the-ads-in-the-windows-10-creators-update/ https://www.pcgamer.com/how-to-ditch-the-ads-in-the-windows-...
- jhanschoo 8y ago
  Microsoft does a lot of cross-promotion: e.g. the weather app that upon first run shows an ad for the news app. Under the default and recommended settings, it sends telemetry, and occasionally asks you to rate how likely you are recommending win10 to a friend. When you launch Firefox or Chrome for the first time, a popup appears from the start bar, saying something like "Have you tried Edge? Edge is XX% faster than firefox/Chrome". Basically you have to be prepared for a new product placement everytime you launch a Micrsoft app for the first time. I've related on reddit that psychologically, this feels like the difference between being in your own house and being a house guest of an old acquaintance trying to get you into their MLM scheme.
driverdan 8y ago
> and there are still some aspects of Windows 10 that annoy me (namely the prevelance of ads) This is why I won't run Windows 10. It's spyware you pay for. No thanks!
- plopz 8y ago
  Has anyone actually paid for windows 10? Everyone I know got it for free.
  - linguae 8y ago
    Technically I did pay around $60 from Dell to upgrade from the Home version to the Pro version, so in a way I did pay for my copy of Windows :).
  - remir 8y ago
    You pay for the license when you buy a new machine. The free upgrade is now over, so if somebody is on Windows 8 and wants to upgrade to 10, he will have to buy a license.
  - driverdan 8y ago
    Anyone who buys a computer with it pre-installed is paying as part of the computer's cost. Regardless of its price I still won't willing run spyware on my hardware.
illegalsmile 8y ago
How is the build of the XPS15 compared to a MBP? One thing I've always appreciated about Apple is their aluminum and absolutely solid builds. Their exterior builds is one of the reasons I buy their products. I know the new keyboard has issues for a lot of people but it has not been a problem for me and I enjoy typing on it.
- willtim 8y ago
  A aluminium body adds significant weight when compared to composite materials; it can also attenuate radio and be prone to warping. IMHO, it is not an obvious choice for a laptop casing. The X1 Carbon is significantly lighter than a MacBook Pro, despite having a better (deeper) keyboard and a removeable battery.
- linguae 8y ago
  I have a 2013 MacBook Air (that's no longer working) and a Dell XPS 15 9570. I also used to use a 2015 MacBook Pro during my previous job. The Dell XPS 15 9570's build quality is quite wonderful and quite Apple-esque. The only complaint I have about this laptop after two weeks of use is sometimes I need to use extra force on the space bar in order to register a keypress (I don't know if this is normal or if I need to have Dell explore this issue), but other than that I enjoy using this laptop.
AdamJacobMuller 8y ago
> namely the prevelance of ads There are ads... baked into the OS?
scroot 8y ago
Yo I cannot reply to some older comments you've made that I found, but I thought you'd be interested to know about this [1]. These guys are working on a version of the Cog VM that will run on its own, and also working on the relevant Squeak / Pharo libraries that could use it (they need the equivalent of "drivers" — these dudes are even implementing tcp in Smalltalk). Check it out. Let me know what you think. [1] https://github.com/nopsys/CogNOS https://github.com/nopsys/CogNOS

scarface74 8y ago

I have a Dell 2n1 for both my work laptop and my personal laptop. I have no problem with either. For the last 20+ years I’ve been exclusively a Windows Developer. But lately as I’ve moved to cloud implementations, Docker and cross platform languages, the “Microsoft Tax” is starting to hit home in terms of costs and resources. My next personal computer will be a Mac. I’ve had a few in the past. But it will either be a 5K iMac or a hopefully updated Mac Mini. With the Mac you get a true Unix environment and the flexibility to develop for any platform - .Net Core, Android, iOS, etc. and in a pinch you can run Windows.

NHern031 8y ago
Out of curiosity, have you had a chance to explore the Windows Subsystem for Linux (WSL)? WSL allows you to run your favorite linux distro with access to most command-line tools, utilities, and so on[0]. I have been a .NET developer for about 5 years now and recently began working in Ruby. The WSL had allowed me to effortlessly set up my Ruby dev environment, while still maintaining Windows 10 as my main OS of choice. While the WSL might not be a full on replacement to a linux OS, it is definitely a neat addition to Windows 10. [0] https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/wsl/install-win10 https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/wsl/install-win10
- scarface74 8y ago
  It's not so much about development. Even if I did move over to Mac OS, I would still probably use the same or similar tool set - Visual Studio Code for everything except .Net Core. For .Net Core I would probably use JetBrain's Rider. It's about deployment. Anytime you use Windows in a cloud hosted environment, you end up spending more on licensing and needing larger instances -- increasing the costs and startup time. I can easily development on Windows and auto deploy on Linux instances when I'm using either Python, C#, or NodeJS. But if I am going to be using Unix like environments anyway for deployment, why not use a Unix environment for development? MacOS gives you the best of both worlds -- a Unix environment for development and polish for everything else.
  - licyeus 8y ago
    That polish has slipped of late, at least with MacOS itself. I used Macs professionally for 14 years but switched to a Thinkpad+Ubuntu 4 months ago and haven't missed much. If you're going to invest time in the switch, I'd recommend giving Linux on desktop a try, as MacOS has been trending the wrong direction for years.
    - scarface74 8y ago
      Ubuntu still doesn’t have the commercial software support, the hardware support, and more finicky than MacOS. Most importantly. You the lose the flexibility of developing for two of the four major platform targets -MacOS and iOS. I don’t see a future of developing for MacOS but that may change with Apple’s announced efforts of unifying the APIs for Mac and iOS.
  - RussianCow 8y ago
    With tools like Vagrant and Docker, this is a solved problem. Use whatever OS you want for development, but the dev environment will still run on Linux, isolated from the rest of your system.
    - scarface74 8y ago

dijit 8y ago

Echoing this sentiment, got a precision 5520 pre-loaded with Ubuntu and it's been a real champ. The build-quality is on-par with Apple and the fact that I still have HDMI/USB-A has been a life-saver a whole bunch of times. There's one other thing that I like too; it's linux. If I bought a macbook I'd definitely leave OSX on it, OSX is a decent system but the lack of decent window manager, the fact that I can't navigate with just a keyboard and the fact that I don't have the ability to mount linux-y/windows-y filesystems except fat is an annoyance too. But they're not annoying enough to make a good Mac Laptop a half-decent linux laptop.

virtualwhys 8y ago
How's the fan noise on the 5520 during basic usage? Browser, email client, text editor, etc. Have an old M4700 here, thinking of upgrading to the 5530, but am not sure what thermal effects of going slimmer/lighter has had on the new design.
- dijit 8y ago
  For easy tasks it's silent, it's very rare the fans roar, but they do roar when doing something that pins cores at 100%. (example: compressing things for more than 3~ minutes with xz) Once the fans are spinning it's rather loud but around the same level as a 15" macbook pro (which my colleague has)
asselinpaul 8y ago
I have found chunkwm to be an enjoyable window manager for macOS: https://koekeishiya.github.io/chunkwm/ https://koekeishiya.github.io/chunkwm/
- slantyyz 8y ago
  When I was still on OSX, I loved Moom: https://manytricks.com/moom/ https://manytricks.com/moom/

pythonaut_16 8y ago

What kind of development are you doing on it? Have you found a good workflow yet? I've given up running Linux natively on my computers and I'm trying to find the best Windows 10 workflow

linguae 8y ago
I'm still in the process of completely moving my workflow to my Dell XPS 15, but my occupation is computer science research, particularly in the area of distributed systems. My day-to-day tasks involve reading and annotating academic papers, writing code (usually in C and Python, but sometimes I use C++ and Java), writing papers in LaTeX, and making presentations (on my Mac I used Keynote but I use PowerPoint in Windows). So far I'm able to do my work using WSL. At times my work involves interacting with the OS kernel, and on my Mac I sometimes find myself using a Linux or FreeBSD VM to do my work rather than programming directly on macOS. For these tasks Windows 10 with the WSL can replace macOS, although sometimes I need to use a Linux or FreeBSD VM. To be honest, I could probably get away with doing my work on a 2001 PowerBook G4 Titanium if it weren't for the browser situation for PowerPC Macs these days, but I love having a powerful yet lightweight laptop with a six-core Intel Core i7-8750H, a 4K screen, and a fast SSD at my disposal.

0xcafecafe 8y ago

I thing I like the macbook for is the longevity. My refurb 2014 Mac Pro still boots up faster than my new XPS from the same year with equivalent hardware. Also, almost no loss in performance as opposed to the XPS. I hope the newer windows machines up their ante in that regard so when my mac pro kicks the bucket, I have something good to go to. With the ugly touchbar and no magsafe charge, the new macbook has lost its appeal for me.

tartrate 8y ago

I decided to leave Apple a while ago too, and a decision like that usually lasts many years.

slantyyz 8y ago
I'm on a weird cycle of switching every 10 years or so. Mid 80s to mid 90s: Apple 2 and Mac Mid 90s to mid 00's: Windows Mid 00s to Mid 10s: OSX Mid 10s to Present: Windows 8/10

dingo_bat 8y ago

> Windows 10 really shines on a computer with six processor cores, a 4K display, and a NVMe SSD I have anecdotally found that just replacing a spinning disk with a nice SSD is enough for win10 to shine.

djaychela 8y ago
Me too. I have an old ThinkPad that I use for car diagnostics. Cheap Gumtree buy, with Win10 and a standard HD. Put a spare 120GB SSD in it, and it's now really usable - previously it was like thick treacle. Win10 seems to be very heavy on drive use?

ta848347 8y ago

> (namely the prevelance of ads) Where are all these ads that people complain about? Is it the half pre-installed apps that come with your computer that you can promptly uninstall?

SyneRyder 8y ago
They're in a few different places, but it will sometimes show ads in the Start Menu for apps you can buy on the Windows Store. It also nags you quite often to buy a subscription to Office 365 or OneDrive. You can turn most of the ads off: https://www.pcgamer.com/how-to-ditch-the-ads-in-the-windows-10-creators-update/ https://www.pcgamer.com/how-to-ditch-the-ads-in-the-windows-...
jhanschoo 8y ago
Microsoft does a lot of cross-promotion: e.g. the weather app that upon first run shows an ad for the news app. Under the default and recommended settings, it sends telemetry, and occasionally asks you to rate how likely you are recommending win10 to a friend. When you launch Firefox or Chrome for the first time, a popup appears from the start bar, saying something like "Have you tried Edge? Edge is XX% faster than firefox/Chrome". Basically you have to be prepared for a new product placement everytime you launch a Micrsoft app for the first time. I've related on reddit that psychologically, this feels like the difference between being in your own house and being a house guest of an old acquaintance trying to get you into their MLM scheme.

driverdan 8y ago

> and there are still some aspects of Windows 10 that annoy me (namely the prevelance of ads) This is why I won't run Windows 10. It's spyware you pay for. No thanks!

plopz 8y ago
Has anyone actually paid for windows 10? Everyone I know got it for free.
- linguae 8y ago
  Technically I did pay around $60 from Dell to upgrade from the Home version to the Pro version, so in a way I did pay for my copy of Windows :).
- remir 8y ago
  You pay for the license when you buy a new machine. The free upgrade is now over, so if somebody is on Windows 8 and wants to upgrade to 10, he will have to buy a license.
- driverdan 8y ago
  Anyone who buys a computer with it pre-installed is paying as part of the computer's cost. Regardless of its price I still won't willing run spyware on my hardware.

illegalsmile 8y ago

How is the build of the XPS15 compared to a MBP? One thing I've always appreciated about Apple is their aluminum and absolutely solid builds. Their exterior builds is one of the reasons I buy their products. I know the new keyboard has issues for a lot of people but it has not been a problem for me and I enjoy typing on it.

willtim 8y ago
A aluminium body adds significant weight when compared to composite materials; it can also attenuate radio and be prone to warping. IMHO, it is not an obvious choice for a laptop casing. The X1 Carbon is significantly lighter than a MacBook Pro, despite having a better (deeper) keyboard and a removeable battery.
linguae 8y ago
I have a 2013 MacBook Air (that's no longer working) and a Dell XPS 15 9570. I also used to use a 2015 MacBook Pro during my previous job. The Dell XPS 15 9570's build quality is quite wonderful and quite Apple-esque. The only complaint I have about this laptop after two weeks of use is sometimes I need to use extra force on the space bar in order to register a keypress (I don't know if this is normal or if I need to have Dell explore this issue), but other than that I enjoy using this laptop.

AdamJacobMuller 8y ago

> namely the prevelance of ads There are ads... baked into the OS?

scroot 8y ago

Yo I cannot reply to some older comments you've made that I found, but I thought you'd be interested to know about this [1]. These guys are working on a version of the Cog VM that will run on its own, and also working on the relevant Squeak / Pharo libraries that could use it (they need the equivalent of "drivers" — these dudes are even implementing tcp in Smalltalk). Check it out. Let me know what you think. [1] https://github.com/nopsys/CogNOS https://github.com/nopsys/CogNOS