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A biologist who believes that trees speak a language we can learn to listen to
- guardian5x 8y agoIf you want to say that trees can talk, you just have to redefine language.
- Quequau 8y agoReminds me of Peter Wohlleben and his book "The Secret Lives of Trees".
- cerealizer 8y agoLiterally mentioned in the article…
- hinkley 8y agoHe’s mentioned about halfway down.
- ckastner 8y ago> Because they relate to the trees as live beings with intimate ties to surrounding people and other creatures, the Waorani aren’t alarmed by the notion that a tree might scream when cut, or surprised that harming a tree should cause trouble for humans. That sounds like textbook anthropomorphizing, and the article seems to follow down that path as well...
- veddox 8y agoAbsolutely. I study ecology, and I have to say this article sounds like quite a lot of hogwash to me. Of course, trees do communicate - but obsessively trying to frame mindless chemical ecological processes in such extreme anthropomorphic terms is dangerously close to the border between extreme oversimplification and rank pseudoscience.
- CuriouslyC 8y agoI always wondered, why is anthropomorphizing looked upon with such disdain? To me, that attitude smacks of the idea that humans are "special." Additionally, if it really is wrong to generalize from human internal experience to that of animals, logic implies that it is wrong to generalize from a specific human's internal experience to that of any other human. Since we don't seem to want to give up on making sweeping generalizations about humans, we should probably also stop making such a stink about anthropomorphizing. Finally, anthropormophizing is a useful metaphorical aid to help people understand. I don't think it's a big deal as long as you avoid making absolute teleological claims.
- veddox 8y ago> anthropormophizing is a useful metaphorical aid to help people understand Absolutely. So does simplification. Simplifying things to make them understandable to non-experts is an incredibly important skill - ask any teacher (or their students, for that matter). The problem comes with oversimplification, simplifying explanations to a degree when they are just dead wrong. At that point, the simplification doesn't only not help with the understanding, it can actively hinder future understanding by suggesting that you have already understood (when in fact you haven't). This article over-anthropomorphizes.
- mirceal 8y agoI guess a better way of putting this is that trees are communicating / fungus and other things that live in symbiosis with trees relay certain types of info. Language and speaking not so much and it does seem s little far-fetched.
- chris_wot 8y ago"help, help I'm being cut down!" If we learned how to speak to trees, it could be terrifying.
- dang 8y agoIf you keep posting unsubstantive comments, we're going to have to rate-limit your account again.
- petecox 8y agoSteady on, it's mentioned in the article. "the Waorani aren’t alarmed by the notion that a tree might scream when cut"
- dang 8y agoThat's not the issue.
- chris_wot 8y agoWhat is the point, dang? It was a whimsical comment, and you are being overly critical. And I was considering the way man affects our environment. And yes, it is mentioned in the article. Your hair trigger response says far more about you than me. I literally have made one whimsical comment in literally hundreds of comments, and you decide to threaten me.
- dang 8y agoThe issue is that you have a long history of posting borderline comments and creating drama on the site as well as in abusive emails. This was a problem. We took the rate limit off your account out of courtesy to you, but that's provisional on the problem not starting up again. Since multiple unsubstantive comments were starting to show up again from your account, I thought I'd better say something.
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- sAbakumoff 8y agoThe title is funny. lOl.
- dang 8y agoCould you please stop posting unsubstantive comments to Hacker News?
- sAbakumoff 8y agocould you please mind your own business? what are you, unsubstantive police or something?
- sydd 8y agoNo, he is one of the admins. And this is not the place for low-effort comments like "me too" or "first!" or "lol"
- sAbakumoff 8y agoI found the title funny, it's not a low effort to share this reaction with everyone.
- tibarion 8y agoNo, it definitely is. I think you should reread the welcome page: https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html "The most important principle on HN, though, is to make thoughtful comments. Thoughtful in both senses: civil and substantial. The test for substance is a lot like it is for links. Does your comment teach us anything? There are two ways to do that: by pointing out some consideration that hadn't previously been mentioned, and by giving more information about the topic, perhaps from personal experience. Whereas comments like "LOL!" or worse still, "That's retarded!" teach us nothing." If that doesn't sit right with you then maybe you'll be more comfortable using Reddit or something similar.
- kulu2002 8y agoJagadish Chandra Bose[1] was one of the earliest Indian scientist who proved Plant perception[2] experimentally [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jagadish_Chandra_Bose#Plant_research https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jagadish_Chandra_Bose#Plant_re... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plant_perception_(paranormal) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plant_perception_(paranormal)
- GuiA 8y agoDid you perhaps mean to link to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plant_perception_(physiology) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plant_perception_(physiology) ?
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- kulu2002 8y agoIn fact paranormal link is more relevant in context of above article.
- theNewMicrosoft 8y agor/plantneurobiology
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- m-durrani 8y agoIt's an elective on Asgard.
- DEADBEEFC0FFEE 8y agoThe title is misleading, the article is says "...a language we can learn to listen to", the title says "...a language we can learn", big difference.
- dang 8y agoOK, we've added that phrase to the title.
- rbosinger 8y agoThis is what alien life will be like. We will decide it is alive but not understand fully what that means.
- fifnir 8y ago> We will decide it is alive but not understand fully what that means. I don't understand fully what this comment means. If alien life has DNA (chemistry) like ours, we learn that life as we know it either started somewhere and spread or was re-invented. If it doesn't, but is obviously alive (move on its own will, hunts, i dont know) we learn that life can exist with different chemistries. If it's not obviously alive but we determine anyway, whichever way we do that, we've learned of a new aspect of life. what does "what that means" mean ? ? ?
- CuriouslyC 8y agoThe odds that alien life would reinvent DNA are basically nil. If we find DNA based life elsewhere that is a slam-dunk for panspermia.
- fifnir 8y agoI agree, but I'm not too sure about that, but I also don't know enough chemistry to convincingly argue for the opposite.. Are there many varieties of self-replicating molecules? (which I understand is needed to start life) Maaaaybe there's only so many ways that this can get started and RNA is the "only" way to do it. In a similar way that we have a hard time imagining non-carbon life since no other element behaves in the ways that carbon does
- 0xdeadbeefbabe 8y agoPresuming we are exceptional finders. I think it's safe to presume the opposite though.
- jonnydubowsky 8y agoI'm really enjoying this comment section conversation. I had to look up "Panspermia": the theory that life on Earth originated from microorganisms or chemical precursors of life present in outer space and able to initiate life on reaching a suitable environment. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panspermia https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panspermia
- yosito 8y agoIf by "speak a language" you mean "have unique ways of sharing information", then of course trees speak a language and of course we can learn about it.
- king_nothing 8y agoAnthropocentric behavior typical precludes respect of life unless it’s cute and usually a tetrapod.
- adityapurwa 8y agoI remember there was some experiments on plants that were treated differently. Both receives the same physical treatment (water, sunlight, etc). The difference was the other plant used to get yelled at, or cursed at. While the others is treated with kindness, talk positive in front of it. The result was, the plant who got cursed died. I forgot where I found this, would be helpful if anyone else encountered such researches.
- jonnydubowsky 8y agoThis reminds me of Masaru Emoto's "The Secret Life Of Water" <https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masaru_Emoto> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masaru_Emoto> where he exposed water to intensely positive and negative words and sounds and photographed the crystals of frozen water from each state. A beautiful book, but also seems to have been debunked as lacking any scientific evidence, as it was more an art project then a peer reviewed experiment. <http://www.beliefnet.com/news/science-religion/2006/03/sensitive-water-science-or-fantasy.aspx> http://www.beliefnet.com/news/science-religion/2006/03/sensi...
- notahacker 8y agoYou're probably referring to this story which got a bit of buzz earlier in the year. https://www.adweek.com/brand-marketing/ikea-bullied-a-potted-plant-while-encouraging-another-then-showed-schoolkids-the-impact/ https://www.adweek.com/brand-marketing/ikea-bullied-a-potted... Since it was conceived by an ad agency to promote anti-bullying (and furniture giant IKEA) there's a fair chance it wasn't the most scientifically valid experiment ever conducted. Mythbusters ran their own test in the past and found that both insulting and being kind to plants stimulated them more than allowing them to grow in silence, but they liked death metal even more (their conclusion was that the basic theory of sound vibrations mildly stimulating growth was plausible). There's more serious research going on into plant bioacoustics: the theory some plants have evolved to respond to specific sound stimuli
- some_account 8y agoHumans can't perceive a lot of things, and on top of that, we have egos that makes us feel superior even though in reality, we are the only ones on the planet who can't live in harmony with other species. If you ever had a cat and really observed it and communicated with it, you know it has feelings and emotions. Birds have it also, so does pigs, horses... But we just ignore all that when it's convenient for us to eat them. I'm not a big fan of humanity. We are pretty awful.
- kranner 8y agoRelevant short story from Ted Chiang et al: http://supercommunity.e-flux.com/texts/the-great-silence/ http://supercommunity.e-flux.com/texts/the-great-silence/
- kpnbg 8y agoI too enjoy watching the perfect harmony of a lion eating a live impala
- mpfundstein 8y agoThe huge difference is that lions dont put impalas into huge factories, where they feed them afwul food, rob them of any dignitiy, slaughter them by the masses, ship them across the globe in order to throw half of it away because it didnt hit the market’s taste of the month!
- Lewton 8y agoThey would if they could
- mpfundstein 8y agoWho knows... i don’t believe intelligence necessarily implies tendencies for mass murder
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- mullikine 8y agoLanguage is found everywhere in nature. Personally, I'm looking forward to when google translate can do cat language
- vinchuco 8y ago"My hovercraft is full of eels"
- mullikine 8y agoIf you were to ask what is human language, it would be the superset of sign language, spoken language, body language, etc. If you take that kind of approach when deciphering the language of cats, just as convnets can decipher the hidden logic of recognising faces, I'd imagine a rudimentary form would be a mixture of visual and auditory signals designed to "trick" the cat into responding.
- vinchuco 8y agoCats are smart enough to communicate with humans, I have no doubt of that. N=2, but once I had a cat that woke me up at night to point out a possum had entered the house and was hiding under a piece of furniture, and once I had one which (different house) gestured me to follow him in the chase after shooing away the intruder cat that kept stealing its food.
- mullikine 8y agotouche. ah yes, the mind of a cat no doubt is a very strange place
- mar77i 8y agoReminds me of "Once upon a forest". A great mixture of scientific facts and research scaled against the cultural hearsay and mysticism around forests from various cultures. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aG1vwxFmwME https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aG1vwxFmwME
- sjclemmy 8y agoI was thinking about communication the other day and came up with an aphorism: “We can’t even understand other people when we speak the same language - what hope do we have of communicating with an alien life?” By which I mean we wouldn’t even recognise the nature of the intelligence presented to us, never mind work out how to exchange information.
- kulu2002 8y agoThats why we think something like this; https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17389842 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17389842
- vinchuco 8y ago"The single biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place" -GBS It's a bit sad we can't yet fully communicate with other life here effectively. I wonder what ethical implications it would have if we ever got there. An analogy to the current state may be that of a man from another language trying to ask for directions to an autistic kid. What does it mean to understand?
- powerapple 8y agowhat's the definition of language? You can communicate emotion through sound/voice, is it considered as language? Language is what makes human superior intelligently. It is the software makes us a computer rather than calculator. Language is where we store knowledge. A language needs to be able to store logic as well as data, and it needs to have a written form so that the knowledge can be stored for a very long time. I wouldn't call any signal language.
- arketyp 8y agoThis is how a title like this fails to make impact. Whether it's information theory, semiotics or grammatology, language is soon reduced to the merest coding of information, implicit or explicit, as any medium of sense (or non-sense). I could argue an algorithm is, by virtue of its operation, a language exchange. The universe too. One should perhaps ask if there is something akin to grammatical structures in this system of roots and fungi.
- sdrothrock 8y agoMakes me think of Wittgenstein saying "if a lion could speak, we could not understand him." Coincidentally enough, there was a comic about this yesterday: https://existentialcomics.com/comic/245 https://existentialcomics.com/comic/245
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- hiisukun 8y agoI once listened to a great radio show [1] on trees communicating (in a way) and sharing resources through a network of fungus that connects their roots in a forest. I can recommend listening if that interests you more than reading a related wiki page [2], but both are cool. [1] https://www.wnycstudios.org/story/from-tree-to-shining-tree/ https://www.wnycstudios.org/story/from-tree-to-shining-tree/ [2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mycorrhizal_network https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mycorrhizal_network
- trhway 8y ago>trees communicating (in a way) and sharing resources through a network of fungus when i listened to that (or similar) show i was wondering - whether it is trees communicating through fungus or whether it is the fungus managing and herding the trees like say we do with cattle.
- hiisukun 8y agoYes, I felt the same way! It is extraordinary to consider that the fungus is able to convince the trees to trade with it, seeming almost like it has plans to facilitate many such relationships over a network of exchange - like an underground market runner.
- ssijak 8y agoOften on Ayahuasca I feel extreme empathy for plants and feel like I communicate with them without spoken sounds. Sometimes I wish that it would work that way in real life, it is really wonderful and humbling feeling.
- daniel-cussen 8y agoPaul Stamets would argue that IS real life, just with that channel amplified so you can finally hear it over the other channels jamming it.
- sakopov 8y agoOne thing I find rather interesting is that a lot of people who trip on mushrooms mention that they see the world around them much more vivid and alive, especially when being out in nature. I've always wondered if this was something beyond some kind of chemical reaction in our body.
- sk_hazratali 8y agoThanks for the information
- harperlee 8y agoTo me, there needs to be a differentiation between communicating and speaking. If you broadcast information and another entity receives it, and uses it, that is not dialogue - just reactions. Even if through an evolutionary game the species reaches effective communication (predators, plagues, etc.), and complex feedback loops emerge, resembling a dialogue, there seems to be something lacking - perhaps the ability to query the other for specific information would be a good litmus test for it?
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- fifnir 8y ago> perhaps the ability to query the other for specific information would be a good litmus test for it? Do you know of Alex the grey parrot? It seems to be the only animal that we have recorded actually asking questions: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex_(parrot) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex_(parrot)
- ianai 8y agoI’ve had house cats ask me things plenty. They’ll ask whether they are welcome in my lap by stopping short of stepping on my leg and looking at me for feedback. There’s much more to communication than human spoken word.
- koliber 8y agoAgreed. I've had dogs communicate with me by angrily running towards me and barking. This conveyed danger and told me to get out of the way. I've once had a small avalanche do the same as well. People would call me looney though if I told them that the mountains communicate with me, and I listen.
- mod 8y agoThe dog conveyed to you its intent to harm you (even if it was being deceitful). The mountain communicated nothing to you. If you were hunted and killed by a mountain lion, it would be akin to the avalanche. It did not intend to send you any message, even if you managed to spot it before it attacked you. The dog fully intended for you to know.
- vinchuco 8y agoHere is also slime mold 'communicating' their knowledge to other slime mold https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17491547 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17491547 . For anyone that is fascinated by nature studies and would like to be exposed to more of them rather than the article about the article I can't recommend PNAS enough. Part of what motivated me to continue graduate studies.
- sakopov 8y agoHere is an article from 2010 about slime mold building a network which is a more efficient version of the Tokyo subway system [1]. This is absolutely fascinating. [1] http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2010/01/22/brainless-slime-mold-builds-a-replica-tokyo-subway/#.W0dZeHNMF-E http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2010/01/22/brainle...
- scoom 8y agoThis guy seems to have copied his thesis from an M. Night Sham movie
- swebs 8y agoI was thinking Avatar.
- leoreeves 8y agoRecommend this incredibly interesting article on plant communication and intelligence by Michael Pollan. https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2013/12/23/the-intelligent-plant https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2013/12/23/the-intelligen...
- jeandejean 8y agoThese theories of humanizing trees become more and more popular lately. But it seems based on observation and speculation only, which is almost certainly completely biased against what people would like to hear: that trees are like the lord of the rings ents. How cool! Not to mention that Waorani just evidently lack abstraction in their language, which is at the root of understanding the world, not missing some obviously networked nature of trees. I'm disappointed that such nonscientific articles are published in hacker news.
- veddox 8y agoYes, and this is even worse: > Haskell points out that throughout literary and musical history there are references to the songs of trees, and the way they speak: whispering pines, falling branches, crackling leaves, the steady hum buzzing through the forest. Human artists have always known on a fundamental level that trees talk, even if they don’t quite say they have a “language.” All of these "songs of trees" are purely physical phenomena, which don't have any connection even to the biological communication of trees, let alone any mystic "language". This kind of argumentation is incredibly unscientific. ("Proving" biology from poetry? As in seriously?!)
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- blueboo 8y agoVarelse.
- swebs 8y ago>Trees exchange chemicals with fungus, and send seeds—essentially information packets—with wind, birds, bats, and other visitors for delivery around the world. Simard specializes in the underground relationships of trees. Her research shows that below the earth are vast networks of roots working with fungi to move water, carbon, and nutrients among trees of all species. These complex, symbiotic networks mimic human neural and social networks. They even have mother trees at various centers, managing information flow, and the interconnectedness helps a slew of live things fight disease and survive together. >Simard argues that this exchange is communication That's pretty much the gist of the article without the fluff. I think the term "language" is an extreme hyperbole here, but it's interesting that rudimentary information can be passed between different trees.
- veddox 8y agoI think the article goes beyond hyperbole, this is approaching the realms of esoteric pseudoscience. The actual phenomenon of intra- and interspecies communications in the plant kingdom is absolutely fascinating - unfortunately, not much actual science shines through in this writeup.
- CuriouslyC 8y agoHow is a molecule different from a word? How is a spatial and temporal sequence of molecules different from a sentence? I think language, like consciousness, is one of those things that a lot of people have a chauvinistic definition for...
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- balt_s 8y agoThis has been posted here before, but your comment put me in mind of http://www.davidbrin.com/nonfiction/dogmaofotherness.html http://www.davidbrin.com/nonfiction/dogmaofotherness.html. Might be worth a quick read.
- mikro2nd 8y agoI think the term "language" is hyperbole in the context of computer algorithm notations. I'm willing to bet that tree communications far surpass computation notations in sophistication, complexity and subtlety.
- raadore 8y agoCatholics have know this truth about God’s creations for a very long time :) http://blog.franciscanmedia.org/franciscan-spirit/saint-francis-of-assisi-and-the-animals http://blog.franciscanmedia.org/franciscan-spirit/saint-fran...
- fifnir 8y agoSo choosing to believe that a person 900 years ago actually talked to animals (and incidentally had nothing better to say to them besides how god is great) is now "knowing the truth" that there are molecular systems that would be interpreted as communication between plants?
- raadore 8y agoWho’s saying anything about believing? Just stating facts based on eye witness accounts from 900 years ago.
- koliber 8y agoThe question I see is what do we define as language and communicating. Do we mean that trees can relay information to each other, as well to other species? Sure, that makes sense. For example, you could make a case that a large tree communicates with the saplings in the underbrush. By shading them, it is letting them know that it is the alpha individual in this area, convincing them not to grow. We can also say that trees release chemicals that have an effect on surrounding life. This could also be called communication. Finally, we could say that a loudly creaking tree is communicating to people around it that it is growing old, getting stress fractures, and could break off a branch that could pose a danger. Any of the above could be considered communications. To counter this, I could make a case that a truck tire can communicate just as effectively. It can cast a shadow which would prevent vegetation from growing. It could leach chemicals over time which would have an effect on the surrounding life. Finally, it could convey a threat by making loud bumping noises while it is bouncing towards you on a freeway. Nature is interesting and complex. We continue to discover new and exciting things about how it works. I think anthropomorphising these effects makes them exciting, but does not necessarily add to how we understand them.
- SketchySeaBeast 8y agoI think the dividing line is deliberate communication - a dog barks because it "wants" to communicate. But then the counter-argument rejects the will, and comes down to "aren't all our actions because of basic chemistry?". I reject that assumption - not because there's a some sort of supernatural element, but just because a whole can be greater than the sum of its parts. There's a massive rift between "sun makes tree grow, preventing other trees from getting the light" and "I'm trying to sell my wares by expressing concepts of value, numbers, and desire".
- bobmichael 8y agoI think the level of complexity is so different between these two examples that we perceive them as conceptually separate, but it is still possible that in absolute terms the same laws are being applied. It could be that as humans we do not have enough intellectual power to understand the second example in terms of these laws. But then it could be argued that this is exactly what makes these two examples fundamentally different, since all human knowledge is limited by our intellectual capabilities.
- vinayms 8y agoEven before I opened the link I had an inkling that this would be Michio Kaku level good for a documentary kind of sensationalism filled piece. I was not wrong. While glancing through, I didn't come across any mention of "intent to communicate". Not sure if any of the links have. It seems like too much is made out of the act of "dropping off things", and perceived as communication. While it is something that we all have done in high school (or at work, sheesh) while analysing the actions of our crush to check for signals, I am pretty sure it has no place in science.
- modzu 8y agoits a horribly lazy click-bait article with no references.
- everdev 8y agoThere's another great book about this subject called The Secret Life of Trees. The basic premise is that in response to physical conditions trees will produce certain chemicals that when received through the root system by other trees cause a similar, pre-emptive response in those trees, mainly for things like fighting off diseases and bugs.
- mindthegap 8y agoYes, I liked that book as well. Especially because it has a lot of references to actual studies and research done at a university.
- jdlyga 8y agoJust set up Wireshark in their fungal network system and capture the packets being sent around.
- phyzome 8y agoThis article is annoyingly fluffy. Trees absolutely do communicate with each other, and with other creatures, and it's amazingly cool -- but you don't need to anthropomorphize them so drastically! It's OK for them to be a bit alien. If you want a somewhat more solid take on the subject, The Songs of Trees is a lovely book. (Mentioned in the article.) It has digressions into geology and anthropology and politics but ties it all together, using specific trees as focal points. I don't know exactly how much of the chemical signaling stuff it goes into -- I'm still in chapter 2 -- but I found the chapter on ceibo to be fascinating. I particularly liked the section this quote is from, talking about how the natives of the area think about the forest network: « The Western mind can perceive and understand abstractions such as ideas, rules, processes, connections, and patterns. These are all invisible, yet we believe them to be as real as any object. Amazonian rainforest spirits are analogous, perhaps, to Western reality dreams such as money, time, and nation-states. » (I wish I had a quote with more context, but that's the best I could do on short notice.)
- anonytrary 8y agoObfuscation via personification. It's funny how chemical communication can be sugar coated to such an extent. There's an old rule for teaching quantum mechanics -- avoid low-hanging "honey-pot" analogies, you'll just lead people to a false, but easy misunderstanding. Does that apply here? Is personification really useful here?
- raadore 8y agoThis is to the admin and mods: it appears to me that my comment got removed from the conversation. Is that correct or am I simply not seeing the entire thread of comments? Or does the system automatically remove comments that get negative points? Please advise so I understand how the commenting system works. Thank you.
- torstenvl 8y agoI recently read The Hidden Life of Trees and found it fascinating, even if I left not entirely convinced. There are certainly characteristics of some tree species that look like pro-sociality. I'll be interested to watch where the research goes.