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Making people pay to report illegal activity is just insane. This is literal fascism - and I'm not just being hyperbolic.

by RIMR 8y ago

24gttghh 8y ago
I'm not trying to defend this, just providing the FCC's context: >`Complaints filed through the Consumer Complaint Center are categorized as "informal" complaints. There is no fee for filing an informal complaint. If you are not satisfied with the response to your informal complaint, you can file a "formal" complaint. Your formal complaint must be filed within six months of the date of the response to your informal complaint. The current fee for filing a formal complaint is $225.00, but it is subject to change. Formal complaint proceedings are similar to court proceedings. Each party must comply with specific procedural rules, appear before the FCC and file documents that address legal issues. Parties filing formal complaints usually are represented by lawyers or experts in communications law and the FCC's procedural rules. No attorneys fees may be awarded.`[0] Question is, does this jive with similar methods of launching court-proceedings in civil-court as an example? [0]https://consumercomplaints.fcc.gov/hc/en-us/articles/205082880?from=button#question_14 https://consumercomplaints.fcc.gov/hc/en-us/articles/2050828...
- nkassis 8y ago
  One thing that seems to have changed is informal complaints won't be looked at by people at the FCC but will go directly to the ISPs. Meaning the FCC won't be monitoring for any issues and only care about formal complaints
  - rayiner 8y ago
    Incorrect. Under both the current and revised versions of 47 C.F.R. 1.717, the complaint goes to the FCC; the FCC forwards it to the respondent, and may order it to file a response which either states the complaint has been satisfied, or explains why the carrier cannot or will not do so: > The Commission will forward informal complaints to the appropriate carrier for investigation and may set a due date for the carrier to provide a written response to the informal complaint to the Commission, with a copy to the complainant. The response will advise the Commission of the carrier’s satisfaction of the complaint or of its refusal or inability to do so.
    - pishpash 8y ago
      The same has been happening with the State AG complaint process, i.e. they've become worthless and toothless. Of course the "respondent" will state the complaint has been satisfied, and by a bot-generated form response, too. Nobody is going to check, and the case will be closed. You have no recourse. US consumers have zero rights because the sheriff is completely in bed with the people they oversee. The CFPB and the paltry legislation passed at the height of the financial crisis are some of the only remaining consumer protection left. The reason why the CFPB had to be set up with a dubious structure under the Fed and an unchecked director is precisely because only a hammer could bring about some semblance of equity. It shouldn't have to be this way to begin with. I don't know why this hasn't turned into a bigger cross-party issue, it affects everyone.
- taurath 8y ago
  So its not just $225, its $225 + the tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars for your law team, to file a complaint to a government agency run by lobbyists of the industry it would be judging. Thats some banana republic shit.
JohnCrane 8y ago
and you are a literal retard
lainga 8y ago
As they say, Mussolini put coin slots in front of all the police stations.
- toast0 8y ago
  Thankfully, the third amendment prevents this in the US.
ars 8y ago
You have to pay to file in court. I've always felt that was wrong, but that is how it works, and it's not fascism, so yes, you are being hyperbolic.
- darkstar999 8y ago
  Taking them to court is a lot different than making a complaint to a regulatory agency whose entire job is enforcement.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - paulddraper 8y ago
    The formal complaint you are referring to is essentially a court proceeding, where both sides present cases to the FCC.
    - uremog 8y ago
      So now there will be essentially no way to "alert the regulatory agency" other than essentially taking the offenders to court yourself?
      - ars 8y ago
        Did you not read the other comments? You can still file an informal complaint. Only if you are not happy with the result do you have to sue.
briandear 8y ago
It’s actually not literal fascism. Paying to report is wrong, but it’s not even close to fascism. And yes, calling it fascism is hyperbole. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fascism https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fascism
s2g 8y ago
No, it's just capitalism in action.
- dang 8y ago
  Perhaps, but would you please stop posting unsubstantive comments to HN? Especially generic ideological ones.
  - s2g 8y ago
    Frankly I think your response is more driven by ideology than mine.
paulddraper 8y ago
> literal fascism - and I'm not just being hyperbolic. High government fees aren't really fascism. They're bureaucracy. Industry-wise, fascism is authoritarian governmental control. [1] By that measure (and it's 100% stupid hyperbole) Net Neutrality is more "fascist" than non-NN. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism
- moorhosj 8y ago
  If we are taking power away from the Government (elected by citizens to serve citizens) and putting that power into the hands of a few corporations, we are moving towards corporate fascism. See also: Corporate tax breaks at a time of record profits, arguments against universal healthcare or family leave, stagnant national minimium wage, increasing barriers to unionization and weakening bargaining ability, selling public lands to private energy companies, weakening EPA regulations, the for-profit prison system, tying education directly to job training.
  - wolco 8y ago
    The definition of fascism according to webster: a political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition. I don't think corporate fascism fits. Corporations would need to use force to suppress you. They would need to control religion. Not sure why the word fascism has come back into common language. We needed a new word to describe Trump but instead we recycled this word.
    - moorhosj 8y ago
      ==The definition of fascism according to webster: a political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition.== Add "to the benefit of corporations and the extremely wealthy" at the end of this definition and you have Corporate Fascism. Who do think is donating the money to these politicians? Corporate Fascism is exactly the new phrase needed to describe what is happening. Your argument was essentially "your phrase doesn't exist" followed by "someone needs to make up a new phrase".
WillPostForFood 8y ago
That is a literal insult to the millions who have suffered under real fascism.
- kryogen1c 8y ago
  The language hyperbole is out of control and tragic. The boy keeps crying wolf, but the wolf will show and murder tens or hundreds of millions of people. Everyone forgets fascism can come from the left, too.
- dang 8y ago
  Please don't perpetuate ideological flamewars here, even if someone else posted something excessive. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
andybak 8y ago
> This is literal fascism - and I'm not just being hyperbolic. reply Tragic that you have enough insight to realise you might be misusing either "literal" or "fascism" and not enough to pull yourself back from the brink... I know "fascism" has been misused to the point of meaninglessness but can we all agree there has to be at least a small amount of - I don't know - death or torture involved - before we wheel out the big guns?
- jerkstate 8y ago
  Here's a summary of Mussolini's Fascist Manifesto, lifted directly from Wikipedia: Politically, the Manifesto calls for: Universal suffrage with a lowered voting age to 18 years, and voting and electoral office eligibility for all age 25 and up; Proportional representation on a regional basis; Voting for women (which was then opposed by most other European nations); Representation at government level of newly created national councils by economic sector; The abolition of the Italian Senate (at the time, the Senate, as the upper house of parliament, was by process elected by the wealthier citizens, but were in reality direct appointments by the king. It has been described as a sort of extended council of the crown); The formation of a national council of experts for labor, for industry, for transportation, for the public health, for communications, etc. Selections to be made of professionals or of tradesmen with legislative powers, and elected directly to a general commission with ministerial powers. In labor and social policy, the Manifesto calls for: The quick enactment of a law of the state that sanctions an eight-hour workday for all workers; A minimum wage; The participation of workers' representatives in the functions of industry commissions; To show the same confidence in the labor unions (that prove to be technically and morally worthy) as is given to industry executives or public servants; Reorganization of the railways and the transport sector; Revision of the draft law on invalidity insurance; Reduction of the retirement age from 65 to 55. In military affairs, the Manifesto advocates: Creation of a short-service national militia with specifically defensive responsibilities; Armaments factories are to be nationalized; A peaceful but competitive foreign policy. In finance, the Manifesto advocates: A strong progressive tax on capital (envisaging a “partial expropriation” of concentrated wealth); The seizure of all the possessions of the religious congregations and the abolition of all the bishoprics, which constitute an enormous liability on the Nation and on the privileges of the poor; Revision of all contracts for military provisions; The revision of all military contracts and the seizure of 85 percent of the profits therein.
dang 8y ago
This comment broke the HN guidelines badly by throwing extraneous flamebait into the thread. That's gross negligence, and it led to a ridiculous flamewar about fascism. Please don't post like this again. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Edit: it looks like you've been breaking the guidelines in other places too (like https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17494098 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17494098). We ban accounts that do that, so please re-read the rules and use this site as intended from now on.

Making people pay to report illegal activity is just insane. This is literal fascism - and I'm not just being hyperbolic.

by RIMR 8y ago

Making people pay to report illegal activity is just insane. This is literal fascism - and I'm not just being hyperbolic.

24gttghh 8y ago

I'm not trying to defend this, just providing the FCC's context: >`Complaints filed through the Consumer Complaint Center are categorized as "informal" complaints. There is no fee for filing an informal complaint. If you are not satisfied with the response to your informal complaint, you can file a "formal" complaint. Your formal complaint must be filed within six months of the date of the response to your informal complaint. The current fee for filing a formal complaint is $225.00, but it is subject to change. Formal complaint proceedings are similar to court proceedings. Each party must comply with specific procedural rules, appear before the FCC and file documents that address legal issues. Parties filing formal complaints usually are represented by lawyers or experts in communications law and the FCC's procedural rules. No attorneys fees may be awarded.`[0] Question is, does this jive with similar methods of launching court-proceedings in civil-court as an example? [0]https://consumercomplaints.fcc.gov/hc/en-us/articles/205082880?from=button#question_14 https://consumercomplaints.fcc.gov/hc/en-us/articles/2050828...

nkassis 8y ago
One thing that seems to have changed is informal complaints won't be looked at by people at the FCC but will go directly to the ISPs. Meaning the FCC won't be monitoring for any issues and only care about formal complaints
- rayiner 8y ago
  Incorrect. Under both the current and revised versions of 47 C.F.R. 1.717, the complaint goes to the FCC; the FCC forwards it to the respondent, and may order it to file a response which either states the complaint has been satisfied, or explains why the carrier cannot or will not do so: > The Commission will forward informal complaints to the appropriate carrier for investigation and may set a due date for the carrier to provide a written response to the informal complaint to the Commission, with a copy to the complainant. The response will advise the Commission of the carrier’s satisfaction of the complaint or of its refusal or inability to do so.
  - pishpash 8y ago
    The same has been happening with the State AG complaint process, i.e. they've become worthless and toothless. Of course the "respondent" will state the complaint has been satisfied, and by a bot-generated form response, too. Nobody is going to check, and the case will be closed. You have no recourse. US consumers have zero rights because the sheriff is completely in bed with the people they oversee. The CFPB and the paltry legislation passed at the height of the financial crisis are some of the only remaining consumer protection left. The reason why the CFPB had to be set up with a dubious structure under the Fed and an unchecked director is precisely because only a hammer could bring about some semblance of equity. It shouldn't have to be this way to begin with. I don't know why this hasn't turned into a bigger cross-party issue, it affects everyone.
taurath 8y ago
So its not just $225, its $225 + the tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars for your law team, to file a complaint to a government agency run by lobbyists of the industry it would be judging. Thats some banana republic shit.

JohnCrane 8y ago

and you are a literal retard

lainga 8y ago

As they say, Mussolini put coin slots in front of all the police stations.

toast0 8y ago
Thankfully, the third amendment prevents this in the US.

ars 8y ago

You have to pay to file in court. I've always felt that was wrong, but that is how it works, and it's not fascism, so yes, you are being hyperbolic.

darkstar999 8y ago
Taking them to court is a lot different than making a complaint to a regulatory agency whose entire job is enforcement.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- paulddraper 8y ago
  The formal complaint you are referring to is essentially a court proceeding, where both sides present cases to the FCC.
  - uremog 8y ago
    So now there will be essentially no way to "alert the regulatory agency" other than essentially taking the offenders to court yourself?
    - ars 8y ago
      Did you not read the other comments? You can still file an informal complaint. Only if you are not happy with the result do you have to sue.

briandear 8y ago

It’s actually not literal fascism. Paying to report is wrong, but it’s not even close to fascism. And yes, calling it fascism is hyperbole. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fascism https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fascism

s2g 8y ago

No, it's just capitalism in action.

dang 8y ago
Perhaps, but would you please stop posting unsubstantive comments to HN? Especially generic ideological ones.
- s2g 8y ago
  Frankly I think your response is more driven by ideology than mine.

paulddraper 8y ago

> literal fascism - and I'm not just being hyperbolic. High government fees aren't really fascism. They're bureaucracy. Industry-wise, fascism is authoritarian governmental control. [1] By that measure (and it's 100% stupid hyperbole) Net Neutrality is more "fascist" than non-NN. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

moorhosj 8y ago
If we are taking power away from the Government (elected by citizens to serve citizens) and putting that power into the hands of a few corporations, we are moving towards corporate fascism. See also: Corporate tax breaks at a time of record profits, arguments against universal healthcare or family leave, stagnant national minimium wage, increasing barriers to unionization and weakening bargaining ability, selling public lands to private energy companies, weakening EPA regulations, the for-profit prison system, tying education directly to job training.
- wolco 8y ago
  The definition of fascism according to webster: a political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition. I don't think corporate fascism fits. Corporations would need to use force to suppress you. They would need to control religion. Not sure why the word fascism has come back into common language. We needed a new word to describe Trump but instead we recycled this word.
  - moorhosj 8y ago
    ==The definition of fascism according to webster: a political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition.== Add "to the benefit of corporations and the extremely wealthy" at the end of this definition and you have Corporate Fascism. Who do think is donating the money to these politicians? Corporate Fascism is exactly the new phrase needed to describe what is happening. Your argument was essentially "your phrase doesn't exist" followed by "someone needs to make up a new phrase".

WillPostForFood 8y ago

That is a literal insult to the millions who have suffered under real fascism.

kryogen1c 8y ago
The language hyperbole is out of control and tragic. The boy keeps crying wolf, but the wolf will show and murder tens or hundreds of millions of people. Everyone forgets fascism can come from the left, too.
dang 8y ago
Please don't perpetuate ideological flamewars here, even if someone else posted something excessive. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

andybak 8y ago

> This is literal fascism - and I'm not just being hyperbolic. reply Tragic that you have enough insight to realise you might be misusing either "literal" or "fascism" and not enough to pull yourself back from the brink... I know "fascism" has been misused to the point of meaninglessness but can we all agree there has to be at least a small amount of - I don't know - death or torture involved - before we wheel out the big guns?

jerkstate 8y ago
Here's a summary of Mussolini's Fascist Manifesto, lifted directly from Wikipedia: Politically, the Manifesto calls for: Universal suffrage with a lowered voting age to 18 years, and voting and electoral office eligibility for all age 25 and up; Proportional representation on a regional basis; Voting for women (which was then opposed by most other European nations); Representation at government level of newly created national councils by economic sector; The abolition of the Italian Senate (at the time, the Senate, as the upper house of parliament, was by process elected by the wealthier citizens, but were in reality direct appointments by the king. It has been described as a sort of extended council of the crown); The formation of a national council of experts for labor, for industry, for transportation, for the public health, for communications, etc. Selections to be made of professionals or of tradesmen with legislative powers, and elected directly to a general commission with ministerial powers. In labor and social policy, the Manifesto calls for: The quick enactment of a law of the state that sanctions an eight-hour workday for all workers; A minimum wage; The participation of workers' representatives in the functions of industry commissions; To show the same confidence in the labor unions (that prove to be technically and morally worthy) as is given to industry executives or public servants; Reorganization of the railways and the transport sector; Revision of the draft law on invalidity insurance; Reduction of the retirement age from 65 to 55. In military affairs, the Manifesto advocates: Creation of a short-service national militia with specifically defensive responsibilities; Armaments factories are to be nationalized; A peaceful but competitive foreign policy. In finance, the Manifesto advocates: A strong progressive tax on capital (envisaging a “partial expropriation” of concentrated wealth); The seizure of all the possessions of the religious congregations and the abolition of all the bishoprics, which constitute an enormous liability on the Nation and on the privileges of the poor; Revision of all contracts for military provisions; The revision of all military contracts and the seizure of 85 percent of the profits therein.

dang 8y ago

This comment broke the HN guidelines badly by throwing extraneous flamebait into the thread. That's gross negligence, and it led to a ridiculous flamewar about fascism. Please don't post like this again. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Edit: it looks like you've been breaking the guidelines in other places too (like https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17494098 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17494098). We ban accounts that do that, so please re-read the rules and use this site as intended from now on.