3 ms·

Hey, by the way, I'm curious if any of the people downmodding me are going attempt to actually, you know, show me how I'm wrong. I'm willing to admit I'm wrong,

Hey, by the way, I'm curious if any of the people downmodding me are going attempt to actually, you know, show me how I'm wrong. I'm willing to admit I'm wrong, but wheels' responses are pretty limp. I mean, check out my "racist" comment again: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=174987 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=174987 ...where exactly is the racism in that? Lots of people upmodded his ad hominem [1] attack on it, but I frankly can't sleuth out anything that would be considered "racist" even by the most liberal of PC standards. Maybe it's time everyone sat back and [just a suggestion] used our brains? [1] For the forgetful: http://www.paulgraham.com/disagree.html http://www.paulgraham.com/disagree.html

pchivers 19y ago
I think your downmodding has more to do with your snarky tone then the content of your argument.
wheels 19y ago
Here's the deal: You've made the case that the reason that Mark Shuttleworth can't be African is because of his color. But African-ness is not a skin color, it's an issue of identity. For instance, I consider myself "American", though I neither live in America nor am I Native American. You then backed that up with a terrible analogy about different kinds of animals. You then extended that to say that because he's white, he can't serve as a roll-model for other people from the same place that he's from. Is there a difference between black and white communities in South Africa? Of course. Might one of those be at an advantage in the business community? Naturally, given the recent emergence from apartheid in the last couple of decades. Is that genetic? No. Fucking. Way. Implying that it is is the essence of racism. If you look at world history you notice quite quickly that cultures wax and wane in their world political / economic influence. It's only been a few hundred years since northern europe was a complete backwater and classical arab culture was the center of learnedness around that part of the world. The middle east is a mess these days. What changed? Did white people steal the "rule the world" gene? Of course not. Appropriately, "Ubuntu", is the African concept of unity of all peoples and races. It is no accident that Mark chose that name for the project. For you to come along and claim that he has no right to his identity because he's what you think is the wrong color for an African is pretty wonky.
- mynameishere 19y ago
  If you want to generalize about a topic, you have to simplify your model, though. Shuttleworth--is he a representative African? Let's count some differences: 1) He's in Africa's richest country. 2) His parents weren't peasants or slaves or absent (as far as I know). 3) He's not Bantu, not Zulu, not a Bushman. He's of English stock. Whatever importance you might attach to these or other variables, the guy is not a representative African, and his circumstances can't be used to make claims about the whole. Is that genetic? No. Fucking. Way. Implying that it is is the essence of racism. Eh. Lots of things are genetic, including the composition of the brain. It isn't necessary to obsess over the particulars, but to make a categorical denial of obvious facts is the essence of brainwashing.
  - Tichy 19y ago
    You could carry that further and say "African = loser by definition, so anybody who is successful can not be representative of Africa". It wouldn't be very useful, though. What point exactly are you trying to make? You might want to read "Guns, Germs and Steel" for another perspective on human history.
    - mynameishere 19y ago
      Diamond's book seems to have replaced "The mismeasurement of man" as the go-to screed for "refuting" genetic differences between people. As a response, I would suggest "The Blank Slate" by Stephen Pinker. The trouble, as always, is reductionism: One side saying, "This is the one-and-only reason."
      - aswanson 19y ago
        Page 6: The trouble, as always, is reductionism: One side saying, "This is the one-and-only reason." Page 1: it has been the long and disastrous habit to look at every variable, any variable, except the obvious ones: The differences between people. !logically_coherent
        19y ago
hugh 19y ago
Suppose you met an Englishman, born and raised in England, who happens to have dark skin due to his African ancestry. Are you going to tell him he's a "pretty peculiar-looking Englishman"? Suppose you meet an American, who happens to look Chinese. Are you going to tell him he's a "pretty peculiar-looking American"?
- cglee 19y ago
  Right on. What is "Africa" and an "African"? Countries and Continents are social constructs meant to organize people into groups.
- mynameishere 19y ago
  "English" is an ethnicity. "American" is not. Hard to understand? I didn't think so, but maybe.
hugh 19y ago
Oh, and also: the comment you're talking about isn't an "ad hominem attack" anyway -- wheels said "that's a pretty racist comment", not "you're a racist".

pchivers 19y ago

I think your downmodding has more to do with your snarky tone then the content of your argument.

wheels 19y ago

Here's the deal: You've made the case that the reason that Mark Shuttleworth can't be African is because of his color. But African-ness is not a skin color, it's an issue of identity. For instance, I consider myself "American", though I neither live in America nor am I Native American. You then backed that up with a terrible analogy about different kinds of animals. You then extended that to say that because he's white, he can't serve as a roll-model for other people from the same place that he's from. Is there a difference between black and white communities in South Africa? Of course. Might one of those be at an advantage in the business community? Naturally, given the recent emergence from apartheid in the last couple of decades. Is that genetic? No. Fucking. Way. Implying that it is is the essence of racism. If you look at world history you notice quite quickly that cultures wax and wane in their world political / economic influence. It's only been a few hundred years since northern europe was a complete backwater and classical arab culture was the center of learnedness around that part of the world. The middle east is a mess these days. What changed? Did white people steal the "rule the world" gene? Of course not. Appropriately, "Ubuntu", is the African concept of unity of all peoples and races. It is no accident that Mark chose that name for the project. For you to come along and claim that he has no right to his identity because he's what you think is the wrong color for an African is pretty wonky.

mynameishere 19y ago
If you want to generalize about a topic, you have to simplify your model, though. Shuttleworth--is he a representative African? Let's count some differences: 1) He's in Africa's richest country. 2) His parents weren't peasants or slaves or absent (as far as I know). 3) He's not Bantu, not Zulu, not a Bushman. He's of English stock. Whatever importance you might attach to these or other variables, the guy is not a representative African, and his circumstances can't be used to make claims about the whole. Is that genetic? No. Fucking. Way. Implying that it is is the essence of racism. Eh. Lots of things are genetic, including the composition of the brain. It isn't necessary to obsess over the particulars, but to make a categorical denial of obvious facts is the essence of brainwashing.
- Tichy 19y ago
  You could carry that further and say "African = loser by definition, so anybody who is successful can not be representative of Africa". It wouldn't be very useful, though. What point exactly are you trying to make? You might want to read "Guns, Germs and Steel" for another perspective on human history.
  - mynameishere 19y ago
    Diamond's book seems to have replaced "The mismeasurement of man" as the go-to screed for "refuting" genetic differences between people. As a response, I would suggest "The Blank Slate" by Stephen Pinker. The trouble, as always, is reductionism: One side saying, "This is the one-and-only reason."
    - aswanson 19y ago
      Page 6: The trouble, as always, is reductionism: One side saying, "This is the one-and-only reason." Page 1: it has been the long and disastrous habit to look at every variable, any variable, except the obvious ones: The differences between people. !logically_coherent
      - 19y ago

hugh 19y ago

Suppose you met an Englishman, born and raised in England, who happens to have dark skin due to his African ancestry. Are you going to tell him he's a "pretty peculiar-looking Englishman"? Suppose you meet an American, who happens to look Chinese. Are you going to tell him he's a "pretty peculiar-looking American"?

cglee 19y ago
Right on. What is "Africa" and an "African"? Countries and Continents are social constructs meant to organize people into groups.
mynameishere 19y ago
"English" is an ethnicity. "American" is not. Hard to understand? I didn't think so, but maybe.

hugh 19y ago

Oh, and also: the comment you're talking about isn't an "ad hominem attack" anyway -- wheels said "that's a pretty racist comment", not "you're a racist".