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People, please stop calling them Hawaiian shirts. Thank you.

by _13gp 8y ago

JoeAltmaier 8y ago
OH, they're definitely Hawaiian shirts. They're not Estonian, for instance. Nor Japanese. Pure Hawaiian. There are also Hawaiian pants, and skirts etc.
- jmkb 8y ago
  The article's a fun read, and indicates that the originals were a product of Chinese tailors using Japanese kimono fabric in a hybrid Filipino/European style at the request of middle-class Hawaiian school boys.
  - JoeAltmaier 8y ago
    ...and made in Hawaii. By Hawaiians. To local taste. As genuinely Hawaiian as any designer dress is the designer's product, regardless of the tailor or fabric origin.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
    - mduncs 8y ago
      Hawaiian is primarily used as an ethnonym, so saying the Aloha shirt is a 'Hawaiian Shirt' is implying the shirt as part of native Hawaiian culture. What you say is technically true at a certain level, people who live in Hawaii do have the demonym of 'Hawaiian', but that term is reserved for the indigenous Polynesian people of Hawaii. It would seem odd to say for someone to say they enjoy native American food as a means of expressing their like of hamburgers and french fries.
      - rustler 8y ago
        But it's not called a native Hawaiian shirt. Hawaiian culture didn't end in 1778.
        mduncs 8y ago
        Hawaii post-Cook ended up losing a lot of its population, because of that and other immigration it began to lose its culture. Other culture loss came fron Westernization and Christianity (Missionaries), the Hawaiian language itself was on the decline because of suppression until a renaissance in the 1970s. The distinction of Hawaiian in reference to native people is a only made off the islands. To anyone from Hawaii or familiar with it calling it a Hawaiian shirt literally is wrong in our understanding of the word. To try and spread that understanding of Hawaiian as reference to native peoples is to spread the knowledge that Hawaii is a multiethnic place with distinct native culture alongside its American, Asian and other Polynesian influences.
        coldtea 8y ago
        >The distinction of Hawaiian in reference to native people is a only made off the islands. To anyone from Hawaii or familiar with it calling it a Hawaiian shirt literally is wrong in our understanding of the word. Well, 8 billion people live outside the islands. Their use of the word will prevail for an object that's available everywhere in the world.
        rustler 8y ago
        That's a fine distinction, but what word would you use to describe something that's a product of Hawaii but not ethically Polynesian? Like Hawaiian pineapples, or loco moco? On the islands you could just call it "local" but on the mainland that wouldn't make any sense.
        mduncs 8y ago
        One answer is undeniably clunky, "these pineapples are from Hawaii." The AP's style guide uses Hawaiian as an adjective. It is a messy thing when typical ways of speaking English conflict with nuances.
      - verylittlemeat 8y ago
        Anyone reading this article or talking about Hawaiian shirts is using Hawaiian colloquially. Maybe you live in a milieu where a distinction is necessary but for most people it just comes off as word policing.
        mduncs 8y ago
        The distinction of Hawaiian as a colloquial reference to anything from the state of Hawaii is made only outside of the state itself. I can't change the way English itself works so there will always be that meaning, but to anyone from Hawaii, that distinction reminds us that native Hawaiians are distinct from the people of Hawaii today. The Hawaiian culture has had its fair share of erasure and suppression. To make the distinction is an attempt to honor and remember the unique identity of native Hawaiians.
        deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
        jasode 8y ago
        >Hawaiian is primarily used as an ethnonym, so saying the Aloha shirt is a 'Hawaiian Shirt' is implying the shirt as part of native Hawaiian culture. I'm not sure people outside of Hawaii mistakenly link the "Hawaiian shirt" to _native_ Hawaiian culture. (The "native" modifier is key here for clear discussion.) Instead, "Hawaiian shirt" is more innocently used as "a shirt common in the geographical place of Hawaii". If you really tried to get outsiders to picture a _native_ Hawaiian culture, they might imagine shirtless Polynesian people like these images.[1] Those people are not wearing the touristy floral printed shirts that are sold as "Hawaiian shirts". >The Hawaiian culture has had its fair share of erasure and suppression. To make the distinction is an attempt to honor and remember the unique identity of native Hawaiians. I'm still confused why the label "Hawaiian shirt" is erasing _native_ Hawaiian culture. If Europeans choose to label what USA citizens call "football" as "American football", they do not imply that everybody links these images[2] to _native_ American culture. No matter how many times Europeans repeat the phrase "American football", these images of native Americans[3] will always be a separate and preserved concept in their minds. [1] https://www.google.com/search?q=polynesian+people&source=lnms&tbm=isch https://www.google.com/search?q=polynesian+people&source=lnm... [2] https://www.google.com/search?q=nfl+football&source=lnms&tbm=isch https://www.google.com/search?q=nfl+football&source=lnms&tbm... [3] https://www.google.com/search?q=native+americans&source=lnms&tbm=isch https://www.google.com/search?q=native+americans&source=lnms...
      - drb91 8y ago
        > Hawaiian is primarily used as an ethnonym I can understand this; at the same time, from my perspective, people use it to refer to the geographical state. So, not refering to a people at all, but a source of origin. Kind of like how I don’t assume Americans eat American food; i just assume I can find it in America. That said, I did learn they are called aloha shirts and will make an effort to use that instead.
      - coldtea 8y ago
        >Hawaiian is primarily used as an ethnonym, so saying the Aloha shirt is a 'Hawaiian Shirt' is implying the shirt as part of native Hawaiian culture. Well, they wear a lot in Hawaii, so... Native Hawaiian culture didn't stop with Columbus...
      - rustler 8y ago
        As an aside, those you refer to as "indigenous Polynesian people" are actually a later wave of Tahitian colonists who conquered and oppressed the previous settlers from the Marquesas Islands. http://www.waimea.com/people.html http://www.waimea.com/people.html So it's not automatic that this particular wave of settlers uniquely deserves to be called "Hawaiian".
        mduncs 8y ago
        While again being technically true, I would love to see any white or asian immigrants noting the ethnography of the original Hawaiian people in the time where they first made contact with and lived among the Hawaiian people. By the time of Kamehameha, I was taught there was a unified monolithic Hawaiian culture.
        rustler 8y ago
        Who are "the original Hawaiian people"? Tahitians? Marquesans? Society Islanders? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discovery_and_settlement_of_Hawaii https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discovery_and_settlement_of_Ha... Does it actually matter whose ancestors colonized first? What's the difference between Hawaii's colonization by ethnic Tahitians and North America's colonization by ethnic English?
      - dragonwriter 8y ago
        > Hawaiian is primarily used as an ethnonym Even if so (and I think that's iffy), “primarily” is not the same as “exclusively”.
  - skepticaldrunk 8y ago
    Doesn't that make it a uniquely Hawaiian thing? The sequence of events spurring the shirt's evolution couldn't have happened anywhere else. The article also makes a point that the cultural melting pot that is 20th century Hawaii is what enabled the creation of such a distinct garment. I think it's very Hawaiian, and should be interpreted as a celebration. Then again, I'm just a Haole with a penchant for comfy fun shirts.
    - _13gp 8y ago
      As a point of comparison, food dishes that came about under similar melting pot circumstances are called "local" food while dishes that have ethnic Hawaiian origins are called "Hawaiian" food.
- _13gp 8y ago
  The proper name for them is stated in the article's title.
  - mistermann 8y ago
    Aloha is a subset of Hawaii is it not? Similarly, these are a subset of shirt. Ideology seems to be increasingly creeping into conversations here (not pointed at you, just saying in general).
    - _13gp 8y ago
      Hawaiian is an ethnicity. Hawaiian is used in specific contexts in Hawaii and using it to describe a specific type of shirt is not one of them. It has nothing to do with ideology and everything to do with accuracy and respect for a group of people.
      - deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
      - mistermann 8y ago
        > Hawaiian is an ethnicity. Indeed it is: Ethnicity: noun, plural eth·nic·i·ties. - an ethnic group; a social group that shares a common and distinctive culture, religion, language, or the like. - ethnic traits, background, allegiance, or association > Hawaiian is used in specific contexts in Hawaii and using it to describe a specific type of shirt is not one of them. Is it not unique (in origin) to Hawaiian culture? > It has nothing to do with ideology and everything to do with accuracy and respect for a group of people. That you think this has anything to do with "respect" is precisely the problem I'm talking about. It's a style of shirt. Even if I didn't like the style, how in god's name does one interpret this as "not respecting" Hawaiians as a group?
  - JoeAltmaier 8y ago
    The Wikipedia article distinguishes between the local 'Aloha shirt' which is a dress shirt with muted floral design or native fabric pattern, and the exported 'Hawaiian shirt' which is informal wear with usually an extravagant floral design. So that makes a case for naming them differently.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
spraak 8y ago
Are you suggesting Aloha Shirt instead? Or it'd be great if you.could explain further. I do understand not saying Hawaiian Shirt, since Hawaiian carries the connotation of ethnically Hawaiian. No sane white person who's born in Hawaii would say they're Hawaiian [1], so in that way it makes sense. [1] I've lived in Hawaii most my life and this is my experience.
- _13gp 8y ago
  Yes, Aloha shirt. Sorry for not being clear earlier, was looking at the article title when posting.

People, please stop calling them Hawaiian shirts. Thank you.

by _13gp 8y ago

People, please stop calling them Hawaiian shirts. Thank you.

OH, they're definitely Hawaiian shirts. They're not Estonian, for instance. Nor Japanese. Pure Hawaiian. There are also Hawaiian pants, and skirts etc.

jmkb 8y ago
The article's a fun read, and indicates that the originals were a product of Chinese tailors using Japanese kimono fabric in a hybrid Filipino/European style at the request of middle-class Hawaiian school boys.
- JoeAltmaier 8y ago
  ...and made in Hawaii. By Hawaiians. To local taste. As genuinely Hawaiian as any designer dress is the designer's product, regardless of the tailor or fabric origin.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - mduncs 8y ago
    Hawaiian is primarily used as an ethnonym, so saying the Aloha shirt is a 'Hawaiian Shirt' is implying the shirt as part of native Hawaiian culture. What you say is technically true at a certain level, people who live in Hawaii do have the demonym of 'Hawaiian', but that term is reserved for the indigenous Polynesian people of Hawaii. It would seem odd to say for someone to say they enjoy native American food as a means of expressing their like of hamburgers and french fries.
    - rustler 8y ago
      But it's not called a native Hawaiian shirt. Hawaiian culture didn't end in 1778.
      - mduncs 8y ago
        Hawaii post-Cook ended up losing a lot of its population, because of that and other immigration it began to lose its culture. Other culture loss came fron Westernization and Christianity (Missionaries), the Hawaiian language itself was on the decline because of suppression until a renaissance in the 1970s. The distinction of Hawaiian in reference to native people is a only made off the islands. To anyone from Hawaii or familiar with it calling it a Hawaiian shirt literally is wrong in our understanding of the word. To try and spread that understanding of Hawaiian as reference to native peoples is to spread the knowledge that Hawaii is a multiethnic place with distinct native culture alongside its American, Asian and other Polynesian influences.
        coldtea 8y ago
        >The distinction of Hawaiian in reference to native people is a only made off the islands. To anyone from Hawaii or familiar with it calling it a Hawaiian shirt literally is wrong in our understanding of the word. Well, 8 billion people live outside the islands. Their use of the word will prevail for an object that's available everywhere in the world.
        rustler 8y ago
        That's a fine distinction, but what word would you use to describe something that's a product of Hawaii but not ethically Polynesian? Like Hawaiian pineapples, or loco moco? On the islands you could just call it "local" but on the mainland that wouldn't make any sense.
        mduncs 8y ago
        One answer is undeniably clunky, "these pineapples are from Hawaii." The AP's style guide uses Hawaiian as an adjective. It is a messy thing when typical ways of speaking English conflict with nuances.
    - verylittlemeat 8y ago
      Anyone reading this article or talking about Hawaiian shirts is using Hawaiian colloquially. Maybe you live in a milieu where a distinction is necessary but for most people it just comes off as word policing.
      - mduncs 8y ago
        The distinction of Hawaiian as a colloquial reference to anything from the state of Hawaii is made only outside of the state itself. I can't change the way English itself works so there will always be that meaning, but to anyone from Hawaii, that distinction reminds us that native Hawaiians are distinct from the people of Hawaii today. The Hawaiian culture has had its fair share of erasure and suppression. To make the distinction is an attempt to honor and remember the unique identity of native Hawaiians.
        deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
        jasode 8y ago
        >Hawaiian is primarily used as an ethnonym, so saying the Aloha shirt is a 'Hawaiian Shirt' is implying the shirt as part of native Hawaiian culture. I'm not sure people outside of Hawaii mistakenly link the "Hawaiian shirt" to _native_ Hawaiian culture. (The "native" modifier is key here for clear discussion.) Instead, "Hawaiian shirt" is more innocently used as "a shirt common in the geographical place of Hawaii". If you really tried to get outsiders to picture a _native_ Hawaiian culture, they might imagine shirtless Polynesian people like these images.[1] Those people are not wearing the touristy floral printed shirts that are sold as "Hawaiian shirts". >The Hawaiian culture has had its fair share of erasure and suppression. To make the distinction is an attempt to honor and remember the unique identity of native Hawaiians. I'm still confused why the label "Hawaiian shirt" is erasing _native_ Hawaiian culture. If Europeans choose to label what USA citizens call "football" as "American football", they do not imply that everybody links these images[2] to _native_ American culture. No matter how many times Europeans repeat the phrase "American football", these images of native Americans[3] will always be a separate and preserved concept in their minds. [1] https://www.google.com/search?q=polynesian+people&source=lnms&tbm=isch https://www.google.com/search?q=polynesian+people&source=lnm... [2] https://www.google.com/search?q=nfl+football&source=lnms&tbm=isch https://www.google.com/search?q=nfl+football&source=lnms&tbm... [3] https://www.google.com/search?q=native+americans&source=lnms&tbm=isch https://www.google.com/search?q=native+americans&source=lnms...
    - drb91 8y ago
      > Hawaiian is primarily used as an ethnonym I can understand this; at the same time, from my perspective, people use it to refer to the geographical state. So, not refering to a people at all, but a source of origin. Kind of like how I don’t assume Americans eat American food; i just assume I can find it in America. That said, I did learn they are called aloha shirts and will make an effort to use that instead.
    - coldtea 8y ago
      >Hawaiian is primarily used as an ethnonym, so saying the Aloha shirt is a 'Hawaiian Shirt' is implying the shirt as part of native Hawaiian culture. Well, they wear a lot in Hawaii, so... Native Hawaiian culture didn't stop with Columbus...
    - rustler 8y ago
      As an aside, those you refer to as "indigenous Polynesian people" are actually a later wave of Tahitian colonists who conquered and oppressed the previous settlers from the Marquesas Islands. http://www.waimea.com/people.html http://www.waimea.com/people.html So it's not automatic that this particular wave of settlers uniquely deserves to be called "Hawaiian".
      - mduncs 8y ago
        While again being technically true, I would love to see any white or asian immigrants noting the ethnography of the original Hawaiian people in the time where they first made contact with and lived among the Hawaiian people. By the time of Kamehameha, I was taught there was a unified monolithic Hawaiian culture.
        rustler 8y ago
        Who are "the original Hawaiian people"? Tahitians? Marquesans? Society Islanders? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discovery_and_settlement_of_Hawaii https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discovery_and_settlement_of_Ha... Does it actually matter whose ancestors colonized first? What's the difference between Hawaii's colonization by ethnic Tahitians and North America's colonization by ethnic English?
    - dragonwriter 8y ago
      > Hawaiian is primarily used as an ethnonym Even if so (and I think that's iffy), “primarily” is not the same as “exclusively”.
- skepticaldrunk 8y ago
  Doesn't that make it a uniquely Hawaiian thing? The sequence of events spurring the shirt's evolution couldn't have happened anywhere else. The article also makes a point that the cultural melting pot that is 20th century Hawaii is what enabled the creation of such a distinct garment. I think it's very Hawaiian, and should be interpreted as a celebration. Then again, I'm just a Haole with a penchant for comfy fun shirts.
  - _13gp 8y ago
    As a point of comparison, food dishes that came about under similar melting pot circumstances are called "local" food while dishes that have ethnic Hawaiian origins are called "Hawaiian" food.
_13gp 8y ago
The proper name for them is stated in the article's title.
- mistermann 8y ago
  Aloha is a subset of Hawaii is it not? Similarly, these are a subset of shirt. Ideology seems to be increasingly creeping into conversations here (not pointed at you, just saying in general).
  - _13gp 8y ago
    Hawaiian is an ethnicity. Hawaiian is used in specific contexts in Hawaii and using it to describe a specific type of shirt is not one of them. It has nothing to do with ideology and everything to do with accuracy and respect for a group of people.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
    - mistermann 8y ago
      > Hawaiian is an ethnicity. Indeed it is: Ethnicity: noun, plural eth·nic·i·ties. - an ethnic group; a social group that shares a common and distinctive culture, religion, language, or the like. - ethnic traits, background, allegiance, or association > Hawaiian is used in specific contexts in Hawaii and using it to describe a specific type of shirt is not one of them. Is it not unique (in origin) to Hawaiian culture? > It has nothing to do with ideology and everything to do with accuracy and respect for a group of people. That you think this has anything to do with "respect" is precisely the problem I'm talking about. It's a style of shirt. Even if I didn't like the style, how in god's name does one interpret this as "not respecting" Hawaiians as a group?
- JoeAltmaier 8y ago
  The Wikipedia article distinguishes between the local 'Aloha shirt' which is a dress shirt with muted floral design or native fabric pattern, and the exported 'Hawaiian shirt' which is informal wear with usually an extravagant floral design. So that makes a case for naming them differently.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

spraak 8y ago

Are you suggesting Aloha Shirt instead? Or it'd be great if you.could explain further. I do understand not saying Hawaiian Shirt, since Hawaiian carries the connotation of ethnically Hawaiian. No sane white person who's born in Hawaii would say they're Hawaiian [1], so in that way it makes sense. [1] I've lived in Hawaii most my life and this is my experience.

_13gp 8y ago
Yes, Aloha shirt. Sorry for not being clear earlier, was looking at the article title when posting.