4 ms·

I'm not sure that implying black people and white people are separate species is the best way to make your point.

by wheels 19y ago

mynameishere 19y ago
I'm not sure that your inability to understand a straighforward analogy is the best way to refute my point. When the subject of Africa comes up, it has been the long and disastrous habit to look at every variable, any variable, except the obvious ones: The differences between people. Now, here we are saying, "There are examples of successful Africans that we can use as models for the whole continent, for example...such-and-such a white person." It makes people feel good to have proven that Africans are equal to Europeans through such a method, but it is a rather bold absurdity. Not to mention statistically meaningless. Not to mention a bit insulting to the indigenous people.
- mynameishere 19y ago
  Hey, by the way, I'm curious if any of the people downmodding me are going attempt to actually, you know, show me how I'm wrong. I'm willing to admit I'm wrong, but wheels' responses are pretty limp. I mean, check out my "racist" comment again: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=174987 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=174987 ...where exactly is the racism in that? Lots of people upmodded his ad hominem [1] attack on it, but I frankly can't sleuth out anything that would be considered "racist" even by the most liberal of PC standards. Maybe it's time everyone sat back and [just a suggestion] used our brains? [1] For the forgetful: http://www.paulgraham.com/disagree.html http://www.paulgraham.com/disagree.html
  - pchivers 19y ago
    I think your downmodding has more to do with your snarky tone then the content of your argument.
  - wheels 19y ago
    Here's the deal: You've made the case that the reason that Mark Shuttleworth can't be African is because of his color. But African-ness is not a skin color, it's an issue of identity. For instance, I consider myself "American", though I neither live in America nor am I Native American. You then backed that up with a terrible analogy about different kinds of animals. You then extended that to say that because he's white, he can't serve as a roll-model for other people from the same place that he's from. Is there a difference between black and white communities in South Africa? Of course. Might one of those be at an advantage in the business community? Naturally, given the recent emergence from apartheid in the last couple of decades. Is that genetic? No. Fucking. Way. Implying that it is is the essence of racism. If you look at world history you notice quite quickly that cultures wax and wane in their world political / economic influence. It's only been a few hundred years since northern europe was a complete backwater and classical arab culture was the center of learnedness around that part of the world. The middle east is a mess these days. What changed? Did white people steal the "rule the world" gene? Of course not. Appropriately, "Ubuntu", is the African concept of unity of all peoples and races. It is no accident that Mark chose that name for the project. For you to come along and claim that he has no right to his identity because he's what you think is the wrong color for an African is pretty wonky.
    - mynameishere 19y ago
      If you want to generalize about a topic, you have to simplify your model, though. Shuttleworth--is he a representative African? Let's count some differences: 1) He's in Africa's richest country. 2) His parents weren't peasants or slaves or absent (as far as I know). 3) He's not Bantu, not Zulu, not a Bushman. He's of English stock. Whatever importance you might attach to these or other variables, the guy is not a representative African, and his circumstances can't be used to make claims about the whole. Is that genetic? No. Fucking. Way. Implying that it is is the essence of racism. Eh. Lots of things are genetic, including the composition of the brain. It isn't necessary to obsess over the particulars, but to make a categorical denial of obvious facts is the essence of brainwashing.
      - Tichy 19y ago
  - hugh 19y ago
    Suppose you met an Englishman, born and raised in England, who happens to have dark skin due to his African ancestry. Are you going to tell him he's a "pretty peculiar-looking Englishman"? Suppose you meet an American, who happens to look Chinese. Are you going to tell him he's a "pretty peculiar-looking American"?
    - cglee 19y ago
      Right on. What is "Africa" and an "African"? Countries and Continents are social constructs meant to organize people into groups.
    - mynameishere 19y ago
      "English" is an ethnicity. "American" is not. Hard to understand? I didn't think so, but maybe.
  - hugh 19y ago
    Oh, and also: the comment you're talking about isn't an "ad hominem attack" anyway -- wheels said "that's a pretty racist comment", not "you're a racist".
- baha_man 19y ago
  'The differences between people' - are you suggesting that Africa doesn't produce more entrepreneurs because of genetic differences between Africans and Europeans?
  - mynameishere 19y ago
    Given the non-industrialized composition of a large part of the African economy, I wouldn't be a surprised if it had a much higher percentage of entrepreneurs than other places.

I'm not sure that implying black people and white people are separate species is the best way to make your point.

by wheels 19y ago

I'm not sure that implying black people and white people are separate species is the best way to make your point.

I'm not sure that your inability to understand a straighforward analogy is the best way to refute my point. When the subject of Africa comes up, it has been the long and disastrous habit to look at every variable, any variable, except the obvious ones: The differences between people. Now, here we are saying, "There are examples of successful Africans that we can use as models for the whole continent, for example...such-and-such a white person." It makes people feel good to have proven that Africans are equal to Europeans through such a method, but it is a rather bold absurdity. Not to mention statistically meaningless. Not to mention a bit insulting to the indigenous people.

mynameishere 19y ago
Hey, by the way, I'm curious if any of the people downmodding me are going attempt to actually, you know, show me how I'm wrong. I'm willing to admit I'm wrong, but wheels' responses are pretty limp. I mean, check out my "racist" comment again: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=174987 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=174987 ...where exactly is the racism in that? Lots of people upmodded his ad hominem [1] attack on it, but I frankly can't sleuth out anything that would be considered "racist" even by the most liberal of PC standards. Maybe it's time everyone sat back and [just a suggestion] used our brains? [1] For the forgetful: http://www.paulgraham.com/disagree.html http://www.paulgraham.com/disagree.html
- pchivers 19y ago
  I think your downmodding has more to do with your snarky tone then the content of your argument.
- wheels 19y ago
  Here's the deal: You've made the case that the reason that Mark Shuttleworth can't be African is because of his color. But African-ness is not a skin color, it's an issue of identity. For instance, I consider myself "American", though I neither live in America nor am I Native American. You then backed that up with a terrible analogy about different kinds of animals. You then extended that to say that because he's white, he can't serve as a roll-model for other people from the same place that he's from. Is there a difference between black and white communities in South Africa? Of course. Might one of those be at an advantage in the business community? Naturally, given the recent emergence from apartheid in the last couple of decades. Is that genetic? No. Fucking. Way. Implying that it is is the essence of racism. If you look at world history you notice quite quickly that cultures wax and wane in their world political / economic influence. It's only been a few hundred years since northern europe was a complete backwater and classical arab culture was the center of learnedness around that part of the world. The middle east is a mess these days. What changed? Did white people steal the "rule the world" gene? Of course not. Appropriately, "Ubuntu", is the African concept of unity of all peoples and races. It is no accident that Mark chose that name for the project. For you to come along and claim that he has no right to his identity because he's what you think is the wrong color for an African is pretty wonky.
  - mynameishere 19y ago
    If you want to generalize about a topic, you have to simplify your model, though. Shuttleworth--is he a representative African? Let's count some differences: 1) He's in Africa's richest country. 2) His parents weren't peasants or slaves or absent (as far as I know). 3) He's not Bantu, not Zulu, not a Bushman. He's of English stock. Whatever importance you might attach to these or other variables, the guy is not a representative African, and his circumstances can't be used to make claims about the whole. Is that genetic? No. Fucking. Way. Implying that it is is the essence of racism. Eh. Lots of things are genetic, including the composition of the brain. It isn't necessary to obsess over the particulars, but to make a categorical denial of obvious facts is the essence of brainwashing.
    - Tichy 19y ago
- hugh 19y ago
  Suppose you met an Englishman, born and raised in England, who happens to have dark skin due to his African ancestry. Are you going to tell him he's a "pretty peculiar-looking Englishman"? Suppose you meet an American, who happens to look Chinese. Are you going to tell him he's a "pretty peculiar-looking American"?
  - cglee 19y ago
    Right on. What is "Africa" and an "African"? Countries and Continents are social constructs meant to organize people into groups.
  - mynameishere 19y ago
    "English" is an ethnicity. "American" is not. Hard to understand? I didn't think so, but maybe.
- hugh 19y ago
  Oh, and also: the comment you're talking about isn't an "ad hominem attack" anyway -- wheels said "that's a pretty racist comment", not "you're a racist".
baha_man 19y ago
'The differences between people' - are you suggesting that Africa doesn't produce more entrepreneurs because of genetic differences between Africans and Europeans?
- mynameishere 19y ago
  Given the non-industrialized composition of a large part of the African economy, I wouldn't be a surprised if it had a much higher percentage of entrepreneurs than other places.