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Guns can be used for good, and they can be used for bad - exactly the same as cryptography. Child porn is something that relies exclusively on exploiting people

Guns can be used for good, and they can be used for bad - exactly the same as cryptography. Child porn is something that relies exclusively on exploiting people who cannot in any way consent to the actions involved. It's in no way comparable. The conversation beyond this depends on your view of the role of government, and opinions there vary. I see the role of the government as maximizing freedom and liberty for people to live and prosper (or fail) in accordance with their own actions. Banning items which the vast majority are completely capable of handling responsibly because of a tiny minuscule of abusers is not something that I think the government should ever do. And really the fundamental problem is not guns, it's people wanting to hurt other people. London is a good example of this issue. As the demographics and state of that city have changed, their crime and murder rates have soared. Even with extremely strict gun control, they managed to briefly surpass New York City in murders. This has now led their government to begin to implement, literally, "knife control" along with "acid control" given a rise in people spraying others with things such as drain cleaner, as a weapon. And when the perpetrators start killing people with steel rods, will we then move to try to ban weights? If people want to kill or hurt each other, they're going to find a way. Looking at the way is missing the actual problem - which is the people that want to kill or hurt other people.

jakelazaroff 8y ago
With regard to the "fundamental issue", number of guns is extremely highly correlated with a high murder rate [1]. General crime rate, on the other hand, is not [2]; London's brief passage of New York in murder rate belies this. More generally, though, OP's statement was explicitly made without regard to whether gun control was right or wrong. It supported standing up to authority figures in the abstract, which is why I used child pornography as an example of something authority figures are (uncontroversially) generally regarded as right in suppressing. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/07/world/americas/mass-shootings-us-international.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/07/world/americas/mass-shoot... [2] https://www.vox.com/2015/8/27/9217163/america-guns-europe https://www.vox.com/2015/8/27/9217163/america-guns-europe
- TangoTrotFox 8y ago
  He stated literally that the action was 'reminiscent of the earlier, more libertarian, hacker ethos'. You are straw manning his comment. As for the issue, do you really think news articles are reasonable sources on an issue like this? This [1] is a list of countries by intentional homicide rates. This [2] is a list of countries by gun ownership rates. Here's a sampling of your "extremely high correlation." ------ Top 5 Countries by Gun Ownership -- Intentional Homicide Ranking (lower means more homicides) 1. USA -- 90 2. Serbia -- 170 3. Yemen -- 77 4. Cyprus -- 179 5. Saudi Arabia -- 166 ------ Top 5 countries by Intentional Homicide Ranking -- Gun Ownership Ranking (lower means more guns) 1. El Salvador -- 92 2. Honduras -- 90 3. Venezuela -- 60 4. US Virgin Islands -- unranked 5. Jamaica -- 73 ------ The numbers get even sillier if you do the top 20. You have to remember that some of the gun heaviest nations in the world include Norway, France, Canada, Austria, Iceland, Germany, Finland, Switzerland, New Zealand, etc.
  - jakelazaroff 8y ago
    The full sentence you quoted, and the preceding one: > Putting aside the specifics of the gun control/rights question (if such a thing is possible), it's downright refreshing to see this guy's attitude. It's reminiscent of some of the earlier, more libertarian hacker ethos, of being focused on being able to do something and fighting hard against authority figures wanting (justifiably or no) to step in to suppress it. i.e. it's "refreshing" to see someone fighting against authority figures, whether or not those authority figures are justified. I'm not straw manning his comment; I simply disagree that the "earlier hacker ethos" he describes is something to be revered, and I've explained why. You are cherry-picking the data in your charts to support your conclusion. The US Virgin Islands, for example, has barely 100,000 people; the US has 320,000,000. Just 4 gun homicides per year there would vastly exceed the US's gun homicide rate.
    - TangoTrotFox 8y ago
      He specifically says the earlier, more libertarian, hacker ethos. While libertarianism ethos would not be in support of child porn, it is in support of many things that people might believe are justifiably prohibited. For instance, many of a libertarian ethos feel that all drugs should be legalized under the logic that the government has no right to tell people what they can or cannot put in their own bodies. This is debatable however, and an example of something that somebody might want to fight against (perhaps by telling people how to grow/refine various drugs), even if others might argue it is something that is justifiably prohibited. When you're trying to find a correlation between homicide rate and guns per capita, you think looking a listing of nations by homicide rates and guns per capita is cherry picking? If so then, at the minimum, you've got some crazy cognitive dissonance going on. Though I failed in my last link to include the sources. You can see quite clearly that if there is any correlation, it's would be an inverse - though I would not suggest causality there. As I said, the problem is not guns - it's people. And even if the countries the fewer undesirables have more guns, I expect that is probably just a spurious correlation. [1] = list of countries by intentional homicide rate [2] = list of countries by guns per capita [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intention... [2] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_guns_per_c...

jakelazaroff 8y ago

With regard to the "fundamental issue", number of guns is extremely highly correlated with a high murder rate [1]. General crime rate, on the other hand, is not [2]; London's brief passage of New York in murder rate belies this. More generally, though, OP's statement was explicitly made without regard to whether gun control was right or wrong. It supported standing up to authority figures in the abstract, which is why I used child pornography as an example of something authority figures are (uncontroversially) generally regarded as right in suppressing. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/07/world/americas/mass-shootings-us-international.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/07/world/americas/mass-shoot... [2] https://www.vox.com/2015/8/27/9217163/america-guns-europe https://www.vox.com/2015/8/27/9217163/america-guns-europe

TangoTrotFox 8y ago
He stated literally that the action was 'reminiscent of the earlier, more libertarian, hacker ethos'. You are straw manning his comment. As for the issue, do you really think news articles are reasonable sources on an issue like this? This [1] is a list of countries by intentional homicide rates. This [2] is a list of countries by gun ownership rates. Here's a sampling of your "extremely high correlation." ------ Top 5 Countries by Gun Ownership -- Intentional Homicide Ranking (lower means more homicides) 1. USA -- 90 2. Serbia -- 170 3. Yemen -- 77 4. Cyprus -- 179 5. Saudi Arabia -- 166 ------ Top 5 countries by Intentional Homicide Ranking -- Gun Ownership Ranking (lower means more guns) 1. El Salvador -- 92 2. Honduras -- 90 3. Venezuela -- 60 4. US Virgin Islands -- unranked 5. Jamaica -- 73 ------ The numbers get even sillier if you do the top 20. You have to remember that some of the gun heaviest nations in the world include Norway, France, Canada, Austria, Iceland, Germany, Finland, Switzerland, New Zealand, etc.
- jakelazaroff 8y ago
  The full sentence you quoted, and the preceding one: > Putting aside the specifics of the gun control/rights question (if such a thing is possible), it's downright refreshing to see this guy's attitude. It's reminiscent of some of the earlier, more libertarian hacker ethos, of being focused on being able to do something and fighting hard against authority figures wanting (justifiably or no) to step in to suppress it. i.e. it's "refreshing" to see someone fighting against authority figures, whether or not those authority figures are justified. I'm not straw manning his comment; I simply disagree that the "earlier hacker ethos" he describes is something to be revered, and I've explained why. You are cherry-picking the data in your charts to support your conclusion. The US Virgin Islands, for example, has barely 100,000 people; the US has 320,000,000. Just 4 gun homicides per year there would vastly exceed the US's gun homicide rate.
  - TangoTrotFox 8y ago
    He specifically says the earlier, more libertarian, hacker ethos. While libertarianism ethos would not be in support of child porn, it is in support of many things that people might believe are justifiably prohibited. For instance, many of a libertarian ethos feel that all drugs should be legalized under the logic that the government has no right to tell people what they can or cannot put in their own bodies. This is debatable however, and an example of something that somebody might want to fight against (perhaps by telling people how to grow/refine various drugs), even if others might argue it is something that is justifiably prohibited. When you're trying to find a correlation between homicide rate and guns per capita, you think looking a listing of nations by homicide rates and guns per capita is cherry picking? If so then, at the minimum, you've got some crazy cognitive dissonance going on. Though I failed in my last link to include the sources. You can see quite clearly that if there is any correlation, it's would be an inverse - though I would not suggest causality there. As I said, the problem is not guns - it's people. And even if the countries the fewer undesirables have more guns, I expect that is probably just a spurious correlation. [1] = list of countries by intentional homicide rate [2] = list of countries by guns per capita [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intention... [2] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_guns_per_c...