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As others noted, it appears Apple was attempting to keep the Taiwan flag emoji (🇹🇼) out of the emoji keyboard depending on localization settings. This is a w

As others noted, it appears Apple was attempting to keep the Taiwan flag emoji (🇹🇼) out of the emoji keyboard depending on localization settings. This is a well-known cost of being able to do business in China; the version of your product for sale/use in the PRC cannot in any way acknowledge the existence of Taiwan/ROC as a separate entity. Most vendors simply have localization switches which hide/re-label Taiwan in location selectors, use some icon other than the flag to let users select the zh-TW localization, re-label any displayed maps, etc. IIRC Microsoft got in trouble years and years ago for a mistake in code they shipped, which accidentally displayed either "Taiwan" or the flag in a build of software for use in the PRC. This has been the case for many, many years. Most HN readers probably just don't deal often enough with localization issues to realize how politically sensitive they can be, and how easily even a small misstep can get you in trouble with a government.

derefr 8y ago
Can you list "Taiwan" as an entry if you don't really care about countries per se, but are just making a big list of states/provinces/territories/other small "cultural" boundaries? Whether or not Taiwan is a country, and whether or not Taiwanese is a language, Taiwan is certainly a place, containing a number of people; and those people certainly speak a mutually-unintelligible dialect of Chinese. Could I get away with listing "Cultures" and "Dialects" rather than "Countries" and "Languages"?
- ubernostrum 8y ago
  Some things seem to get away with "Taiwan, Province of China".
  - gurkendoktor 8y ago
    Oh, thanks for mentioning this. This phrasing is mostly a rookie developer trap! We're all so used to ISO standards that we assume they are politically neutral. That's why everyone starts their weekend project with the ISO 3166 country list that includes "Taiwan, Province of China" [1] [2] [3]. This list is crap. It follows UN country names, and the UN is not a neutral entity. It isn't even logical that "Hong Kong" can stand on its own in the list, but Taiwan has to be suffixed with "Province of China". As far as I know, no major website uses this list unmodified. (The airlines that recently bowed to PRC pressure now call it "Taiwan, China"). If you see the "Province of China" label on a website, you should refer its developer to the Unicode CLDR data: http://cldr.unicode.org/index http://cldr.unicode.org/index The CLDR data is the actual industry standard, and tries to be as neutral as possible. [1] https://github.com/rails/country_select https://github.com/rails/country_select [2] https://gist.github.com/DHS/1340150 https://gist.github.com/DHS/1340150 [3] https://pypi.org/project/django-countries/ https://pypi.org/project/django-countries/
- gurkendoktor 8y ago
  I think calling Taiwan a separate culture would make it worse from a PRC point of view (and for the many Taiwanese who don't speak Taiwanese). The official language of Taiwan is Mandarin Chinese, just like in the PRC. Many people on both sides of the strait speak mutually intelligible dialects at home. There's no clear difference between both countries in that regard. Hong Kong is a part of China, and still has its own flag, passport, currency, and linguistic identity. The only caveat is that you have to call it a "region". So if you have a drop-down with China, Hong Kong, and Taiwan, you simply prefix it "Country or region", and nobody can technically be offended.
slededit 8y ago
Win 95 had a time zone map, but after numerous countries (not just China) with border disputes demanded changes they removed the feature entirely.
RugnirViking 8y ago
"Most HN readers probably just don't deal often enough with localization issues to realize how politically sensitive they can be, and how easily even a small misstep can get you in trouble with a government." I feel like plenty of countries manage just fine. My app is not blocked and I am not arrested in greece for referencing 'Macedonia' in a list of countries. Hell I could go round making hilariously wrong UI borderline offensive like including goa as part of portugal or canada as part of the UK and people would think im silly sure but not ban the company althogether... I would be interested in any examples not related to the chinese government or thai lese majeste laws. Also perhaps not obvious ones like map border disagreements.
- ubernostrum 8y ago
  Also perhaps not obvious ones like map border disagreements. That's where a lot of them come from. According to your app, which country is a resident of these places living in: * Kashmir? * The Crimean peninsula? * Jerusalem? One of these has been the subject of a US Supreme Court case recently. What's your app's stance on the status of Catalonia? Does your list of countries include Kosovo? What about Transnistria? The Donetsk People's Republic? Do you have users in Argentina? If so, do you make sure to refer to that island group as "Malvinas" instead of "Falklands"? I can assure you that none of these examples are regarded as "silly" by the people involved, or by some major governments.

derefr 8y ago

Can you list "Taiwan" as an entry if you don't really care about countries per se, but are just making a big list of states/provinces/territories/other small "cultural" boundaries? Whether or not Taiwan is a country, and whether or not Taiwanese is a language, Taiwan is certainly a place, containing a number of people; and those people certainly speak a mutually-unintelligible dialect of Chinese. Could I get away with listing "Cultures" and "Dialects" rather than "Countries" and "Languages"?

ubernostrum 8y ago
Some things seem to get away with "Taiwan, Province of China".
- gurkendoktor 8y ago
  Oh, thanks for mentioning this. This phrasing is mostly a rookie developer trap! We're all so used to ISO standards that we assume they are politically neutral. That's why everyone starts their weekend project with the ISO 3166 country list that includes "Taiwan, Province of China" [1] [2] [3]. This list is crap. It follows UN country names, and the UN is not a neutral entity. It isn't even logical that "Hong Kong" can stand on its own in the list, but Taiwan has to be suffixed with "Province of China". As far as I know, no major website uses this list unmodified. (The airlines that recently bowed to PRC pressure now call it "Taiwan, China"). If you see the "Province of China" label on a website, you should refer its developer to the Unicode CLDR data: http://cldr.unicode.org/index http://cldr.unicode.org/index The CLDR data is the actual industry standard, and tries to be as neutral as possible. [1] https://github.com/rails/country_select https://github.com/rails/country_select [2] https://gist.github.com/DHS/1340150 https://gist.github.com/DHS/1340150 [3] https://pypi.org/project/django-countries/ https://pypi.org/project/django-countries/
gurkendoktor 8y ago
I think calling Taiwan a separate culture would make it worse from a PRC point of view (and for the many Taiwanese who don't speak Taiwanese). The official language of Taiwan is Mandarin Chinese, just like in the PRC. Many people on both sides of the strait speak mutually intelligible dialects at home. There's no clear difference between both countries in that regard. Hong Kong is a part of China, and still has its own flag, passport, currency, and linguistic identity. The only caveat is that you have to call it a "region". So if you have a drop-down with China, Hong Kong, and Taiwan, you simply prefix it "Country or region", and nobody can technically be offended.

slededit 8y ago

Win 95 had a time zone map, but after numerous countries (not just China) with border disputes demanded changes they removed the feature entirely.

RugnirViking 8y ago

"Most HN readers probably just don't deal often enough with localization issues to realize how politically sensitive they can be, and how easily even a small misstep can get you in trouble with a government." I feel like plenty of countries manage just fine. My app is not blocked and I am not arrested in greece for referencing 'Macedonia' in a list of countries. Hell I could go round making hilariously wrong UI borderline offensive like including goa as part of portugal or canada as part of the UK and people would think im silly sure but not ban the company althogether... I would be interested in any examples not related to the chinese government or thai lese majeste laws. Also perhaps not obvious ones like map border disagreements.

ubernostrum 8y ago
Also perhaps not obvious ones like map border disagreements. That's where a lot of them come from. According to your app, which country is a resident of these places living in: * Kashmir? * The Crimean peninsula? * Jerusalem? One of these has been the subject of a US Supreme Court case recently. What's your app's stance on the status of Catalonia? Does your list of countries include Kosovo? What about Transnistria? The Donetsk People's Republic? Do you have users in Argentina? If so, do you make sure to refer to that island group as "Malvinas" instead of "Falklands"? I can assure you that none of these examples are regarded as "silly" by the people involved, or by some major governments.