5 ms·

U.S. Moves Forward on $200B China Tariff

30 points by samspenc 8y ago

mozumder 8y ago
If China's retaliation harms the Trump base the most, via tariffs on US farm products and manufactured goods, then I'm all for it. We need free trade and open borders, so let this be a lesson to the Trumpers.
- zip1234 8y ago
  The goal of the tariffs IS free trade and open borders. You think they are wanted by the administration? They are a tool to get China to play nice, which they haven't been.
  - mozumder 8y ago
    > The goal of the tariffs IS free trade and open borders. You think they are wanted by the administration? LOL this administration definitely does not want free trade and open borders.
- throwawayqdhd 8y ago
  It's an unequal relationship. Free trade would mean that Google and Amazon and Ford get a level playing field in China as well. But that's not the case.
DeonPenny 8y ago
Smart move, literally the only thing I agree with Trump on. China has been doing the same for years harming other countries industries.
JumpCrisscross 8y ago
The tariffs against Europe and Canada are stupid. The tariffs against China, an emerging dictatorship, make sense. Their admission into the WTO was a mistake [1]. [1] https://www.economist.com/leaders/2018/03/01/how-the-west-got-china-wrong https://www.economist.com/leaders/2018/03/01/how-the-west-go...
- rdlecler1 8y ago
  This terms like a strategic decision: Trump now has a bargaining chip with Europe/Canada that he can use to pressure them into ganging up on China. Without that pressure Europe/Canada would not be eager to take on China.
  - tryptophan 8y ago
    Or you know...he could just ask them to cooperate, as they have been our allies for a very long time. No reason to use coercion.
    - rdlecler1 8y ago
      I was making an assessment of the strategic reasoning, not making a normative judgement. In discussions about Trump people seem to have difficulty separating the two.
  - lord_ring_111 8y ago
    Rdl - anytime u say trump can be remotely right in hn, u get down voted by tyrany of left liberals.
  - slededit 8y ago
    They would have helped regardless because it was in their interests anyways. Especially in the case of Canada the PM's popularity now comes from standing up to the "mean Americans". Where before compromise was possible its a lot harder now that nationalism has been stoked.
    - ralfn 8y ago
      Bingo. Also, unlike the US we like stable relationships a lot more than maximizing profitability. The US has now proven to be unreliable and any further deal with the US will not be considered in the long term which clearly doesn't exist. So if it's not immediately in our interest we are unlike to make any deal about anything with the US as it now. No more loyalty. No more trust. Just aggressive animals trying every chance they get to steal each others food. Yuck.
microdrum 8y ago
Reminder: this isn't a "tariff" in the 19th century protectionist sense. It's a tool to combat bad behavior.
propman 8y ago
Smart move IF we weren’t doing the same to Europe and Canada at the same time. Europe is completely unreliable in terms of a united front against China, everyone has failed on that. They delay, delay, empty promises almost as bad as China so we don’t need them per say but we don’t want to get retaliation from them either. And Canada is awesome.
- the_duke 8y ago
  Well, the US leadership has made it quite clear that US is only in for themselfes and not a reliable partner anymore, at least in the current presidency. China already is a very important trading partner for the EU, so it makes sense to look east if relationships to the west deteriorate. Apart from practical reasons, I actually think facing off China on their extremely anti-comptetitive and protectionist behaviour is long overdue and something the EU should do as well.
  - qaq 8y ago
    "the US leadership has made it quite clear that US is only in for themselves" as opposed to EU always looking out for US :)?
    - slededit 8y ago
      The old world order was the US would be mostly fair to its allies, and in return everyone would turn a blind eye as it pursued whatever it wanted in the third world. Because the west would never seriously challenge the US it never had to be concerned about the UN or any international body that constrains the actions of most nations. The US is the most powerful single country but alone against a united world it would not have nearly the same freedom of movement it has now.
      - qaq 8y ago
        You see the "blind eye" thing for EU is complain loudly and do nothing and thats not specifically related to US either. Russia invades a country "voice concern" Russia shoots down a plain with many EU citizens now it's "deep concern" while still laundering money for russian politicians and oligarchs etc. So at some point none cares any more if EU voices "concern", "deep concern" or "very deep concern".
module0000 8y ago
Meanwhile... nasdaq prices were within 20 points of all time highs today. Tariff's aren't having decimating effect on the economy(yet?) that mainstream media would have us believe. Not saying they are good/bad/etc, I don't care, I'm only interested in their effects on markets. This whole tariff brouhaha has created the best summer for day traders I've ever observed. Normally, market participants take all of summer off...because it's horrible. No volume, no volatility...etc. This summer has been gangbusters in the market.
- 542458 8y ago
  The stock market is not the economy. The two can (and often) do very different things. https://www.betterment.com/resources/economy-vs-stock-market/ https://www.betterment.com/resources/economy-vs-stock-market...
  - wtvanhest 8y ago
    Today's stock market performance shows investor views of the future. The author of that articles seems to think its the reverse which isnt true.
    - dragonwriter 8y ago
      > Today's stock market performance shows investor views of the future. ...of returns to capital, which, again, is not the whole of the economy, or guaranteed to be representative of the whole of the economy.
      - dllthomas 8y ago
        Moreover, "... of returns to capital, in comparison to doing other things with the money." Still, I would suspect tariffs to generally hurt that.
- throwawayqdhd 8y ago
  The mainstream media has become a terrible place for any sort of rational discussion. They're too busy criticizing Trump to analyze the impact of these moves. I have zero love for the man, but it's clear that the US has the upper hand in this trade war and should be able to squeeze China for better deals.
clay_the_ripper 8y ago
What are the real world implications of this? Is stuff at Walmart suddenly going to get more expensive? Or is that not how this works?
- burfog 8y ago
  Some of the stuff does, but Walmart will change what they offer. You'll see more stuff made in other countries. Walmart will not stubbornly continue buying from China. Meanwhile, wages/salary in the USA are likely to go up a little bit, more or less compensating for any increase in costs.
- thecolorblue 8y ago
  Anything that is made of inexpensive electronics will increase in price. Then anything that uses electronics will go up in price. It is tough to say how much, as demand will shift to equivelant products as the cost increases, but it's safe to say the any computer hardware will have some increase in price. Since computers are used in every industry it could cause any other low margin product to increase in price as there is no room for the company to eat the cost of the tariff. The interesting part is that we don't know how the economy will respond to tech becoming more expensive as that is not the trend. Technology usually gets less expensive. I'm only focusing on the tech side of things. There could be different affects in other industies.

30 points by samspenc 8y ago

If China's retaliation harms the Trump base the most, via tariffs on US farm products and manufactured goods, then I'm all for it. We need free trade and open borders, so let this be a lesson to the Trumpers.

zip1234 8y ago
The goal of the tariffs IS free trade and open borders. You think they are wanted by the administration? They are a tool to get China to play nice, which they haven't been.
- mozumder 8y ago
  > The goal of the tariffs IS free trade and open borders. You think they are wanted by the administration? LOL this administration definitely does not want free trade and open borders.
throwawayqdhd 8y ago
It's an unequal relationship. Free trade would mean that Google and Amazon and Ford get a level playing field in China as well. But that's not the case.

DeonPenny 8y ago

Smart move, literally the only thing I agree with Trump on. China has been doing the same for years harming other countries industries.

JumpCrisscross 8y ago

The tariffs against Europe and Canada are stupid. The tariffs against China, an emerging dictatorship, make sense. Their admission into the WTO was a mistake [1]. [1] https://www.economist.com/leaders/2018/03/01/how-the-west-got-china-wrong https://www.economist.com/leaders/2018/03/01/how-the-west-go...

rdlecler1 8y ago
This terms like a strategic decision: Trump now has a bargaining chip with Europe/Canada that he can use to pressure them into ganging up on China. Without that pressure Europe/Canada would not be eager to take on China.
- tryptophan 8y ago
  Or you know...he could just ask them to cooperate, as they have been our allies for a very long time. No reason to use coercion.
  - rdlecler1 8y ago
    I was making an assessment of the strategic reasoning, not making a normative judgement. In discussions about Trump people seem to have difficulty separating the two.
- lord_ring_111 8y ago
  Rdl - anytime u say trump can be remotely right in hn, u get down voted by tyrany of left liberals.
- slededit 8y ago
  They would have helped regardless because it was in their interests anyways. Especially in the case of Canada the PM's popularity now comes from standing up to the "mean Americans". Where before compromise was possible its a lot harder now that nationalism has been stoked.
  - ralfn 8y ago
    Bingo. Also, unlike the US we like stable relationships a lot more than maximizing profitability. The US has now proven to be unreliable and any further deal with the US will not be considered in the long term which clearly doesn't exist. So if it's not immediately in our interest we are unlike to make any deal about anything with the US as it now. No more loyalty. No more trust. Just aggressive animals trying every chance they get to steal each others food. Yuck.

microdrum 8y ago

Reminder: this isn't a "tariff" in the 19th century protectionist sense. It's a tool to combat bad behavior.

propman 8y ago

Smart move IF we weren’t doing the same to Europe and Canada at the same time. Europe is completely unreliable in terms of a united front against China, everyone has failed on that. They delay, delay, empty promises almost as bad as China so we don’t need them per say but we don’t want to get retaliation from them either. And Canada is awesome.

the_duke 8y ago
Well, the US leadership has made it quite clear that US is only in for themselfes and not a reliable partner anymore, at least in the current presidency. China already is a very important trading partner for the EU, so it makes sense to look east if relationships to the west deteriorate. Apart from practical reasons, I actually think facing off China on their extremely anti-comptetitive and protectionist behaviour is long overdue and something the EU should do as well.
- qaq 8y ago
  "the US leadership has made it quite clear that US is only in for themselves" as opposed to EU always looking out for US :)?
  - slededit 8y ago
    The old world order was the US would be mostly fair to its allies, and in return everyone would turn a blind eye as it pursued whatever it wanted in the third world. Because the west would never seriously challenge the US it never had to be concerned about the UN or any international body that constrains the actions of most nations. The US is the most powerful single country but alone against a united world it would not have nearly the same freedom of movement it has now.
    - qaq 8y ago
      You see the "blind eye" thing for EU is complain loudly and do nothing and thats not specifically related to US either. Russia invades a country "voice concern" Russia shoots down a plain with many EU citizens now it's "deep concern" while still laundering money for russian politicians and oligarchs etc. So at some point none cares any more if EU voices "concern", "deep concern" or "very deep concern".

module0000 8y ago

Meanwhile... nasdaq prices were within 20 points of all time highs today. Tariff's aren't having decimating effect on the economy(yet?) that mainstream media would have us believe. Not saying they are good/bad/etc, I don't care, I'm only interested in their effects on markets. This whole tariff brouhaha has created the best summer for day traders I've ever observed. Normally, market participants take all of summer off...because it's horrible. No volume, no volatility...etc. This summer has been gangbusters in the market.

542458 8y ago
The stock market is not the economy. The two can (and often) do very different things. https://www.betterment.com/resources/economy-vs-stock-market/ https://www.betterment.com/resources/economy-vs-stock-market...
- wtvanhest 8y ago
  Today's stock market performance shows investor views of the future. The author of that articles seems to think its the reverse which isnt true.
  - dragonwriter 8y ago
    > Today's stock market performance shows investor views of the future. ...of returns to capital, which, again, is not the whole of the economy, or guaranteed to be representative of the whole of the economy.
    - dllthomas 8y ago
      Moreover, "... of returns to capital, in comparison to doing other things with the money." Still, I would suspect tariffs to generally hurt that.
throwawayqdhd 8y ago
The mainstream media has become a terrible place for any sort of rational discussion. They're too busy criticizing Trump to analyze the impact of these moves. I have zero love for the man, but it's clear that the US has the upper hand in this trade war and should be able to squeeze China for better deals.

clay_the_ripper 8y ago

What are the real world implications of this? Is stuff at Walmart suddenly going to get more expensive? Or is that not how this works?

burfog 8y ago
Some of the stuff does, but Walmart will change what they offer. You'll see more stuff made in other countries. Walmart will not stubbornly continue buying from China. Meanwhile, wages/salary in the USA are likely to go up a little bit, more or less compensating for any increase in costs.
thecolorblue 8y ago
Anything that is made of inexpensive electronics will increase in price. Then anything that uses electronics will go up in price. It is tough to say how much, as demand will shift to equivelant products as the cost increases, but it's safe to say the any computer hardware will have some increase in price. Since computers are used in every industry it could cause any other low margin product to increase in price as there is no room for the company to eat the cost of the tariff. The interesting part is that we don't know how the economy will respond to tech becoming more expensive as that is not the trend. Technology usually gets less expensive. I'm only focusing on the tech side of things. There could be different affects in other industies.