6 ms·

If only Australia's CSIRO still had enough funding to do this kind of work itself rather than 'partner with' (i.e. contribute public funding towards the private

If only Australia's CSIRO still had enough funding to do this kind of work itself rather than 'partner with' (i.e. contribute public funding towards the private investment goals of) for-profit companies. Amongst CSIRO's earlier inventions are 1960s insect repelent 'Aerogard', polymer banknotes and major components of Wi-Fi as we know it.

pm90 8y ago
I don't see what the problem is if the for-profit companies goals align with theirs.
- NamTaf 8y ago
  It's more a reflection on the fact that our governments have successively cut CSIRO's funding again and again despite their demonstrated return on investment and notable achievements.
  - enneff 8y ago
    Indeed. The most recent governments' hostility toward scientific research has been hugely damaging to the research community in Australia. The CSIRO were once an amazing asset to the world, now with their funding slashed dramatically there are many brilliant teams without the resources to develop their ideas. So disappointing and frustrating to watch. :-(
    - BigJono 8y ago
      They are and always have been a bunch of anti-intellectual religious zealots. I'm not sure what anyone was expecting. There's still too many people drinking the kool-aid to say it now, but I'd be very surprised if by 2050, Tony Abbott isn't considered the worst PM in Australian history.
      - electricwater 8y ago
        I think Tony Abbott moved to the Republic of Gilead.
      - hydrox24 8y ago
        > "anti-intellectual religious zealots" This is a ridiculous thing to say. Curtin, Hawke, and Gillard all left the faiths they were raised in, and the first two Prime Ministers were Spiritualist (no dogma, not really zealots) and Unitarian (no supernatural belief) respectively. Australia is not a country in which accusations of zealotry can be fairly levelled. If you'll allow me to ignore the non-sequiter about Abbott, it's worth pointing out that while he did cut CSIRO funding, as much to my disappointment as it was to yours, it wasn't really unprecedented, with funding experiencing lows that were similar under Hawke and Howard.[0] We ought to fund public research better in this country. We can afford it. But we don't have to use silly name-calling to get there. [0]: https://theconversation.com/infographic-how-much-does-australia-spend-on-science-and-research-61094 https://theconversation.com/infographic-how-much-does-austra...
        enneff 8y ago
        I think they were referring to the previous two Coalition governments. Abbott was certainly a religious zealot.
  - thomasfedb 8y ago
    As a scientist in training this is hugely demoralizing. The CSIRO is an amazing institution — with an excellent sense of humour on social media. We should be proud as punch about CSIRO's achievements, and ensure that they are enabled to continue their laudable work.
  - testaccount7 8y ago
    Didn't know about CSIRO's earlier inventions, awesome
  - bko 8y ago
    Really? It seems pretty steady although it has ticked down slightly as a percentage of gdp since 2012. And looking at spending as a percentage of gdp is a bit misleading, as funding may increase but not at the same pace as gdp growth. I think a more meaningful measure would be real dollars. CSIRO funding over time 2012-2013 733.8 2013-2014 778.2 2014-2015 745.3 2015-2016 750.3 Do you think that high extra 28mm to attain that high water mark of 2013-2014 funding would have made the big impact? Maybe 2017-2018 are dramatically lower and if they are, please provide a source. http://www.arc.gov.au/sites/default/files/filedepot/Public/Media%20&%20Resources%20Centre/Presentations/graphics/2016/Selected_research_agencies_2003to2016_million.jpg http://www.arc.gov.au/sites/default/files/filedepot/Public/M... http://theconversation.com/infographic-how-much-does-australia-spend-on-science-and-research-61094 http://theconversation.com/infographic-how-much-does-austral...
    - CompelTechnic 8y ago
      Thanks for keeping things factual.
    - NamTaf 8y ago
      Thanks for pointing that out and correcting me. I'd not followed it personally since the Abbott prime-minstership and didn't realise that Turnbull had actually reversed the inital plan to cut $115m over 5 years. The first year of that was the ~30m reduction in 2014-15 that your data shows. I hope the 2016-17 figure continues that trend. Again, thanks for fact-checking me. I appreciate the correction!
- martalist 8y ago
  The "if" is the problem. How many projects are they unable to work on because no for-profit company is interested?
  - infectoid 8y ago
    Yep. This is the actual issue. There is less room for blue sky research with less public funding.
- bsiemon 8y ago
  It depends how on the deal is structured. Public money flows to private hands to fund research. If the research pans out, does any of the profit flow back to the public? Typically not.
- drb91 8y ago
  The public has no control over the incentives of private corporations, so their goals could change at any time.
  - kingofhdds 8y ago
    This argument implies the public controls gov. organizations/departments which is in most cases not true (unless there's some scandal to attract attention).
    - drb91 8y ago
      Well, it’s certainly more true than having any control over a corporation.
- 8bitsrule 8y ago
  It's only a problem if their goals include efficiently getting the most research value out of taxpayer investment, while retaining highly-skilled public employees in a long-lived, scientifically-oriented organization. Historically, a high percentage of major advances in basic science arose in publically-funded org's. The vision tends to be more long-term, the results less utilitarian.
  - samatman 8y ago
    I've been known to draw public funds, so I'm not disputing your angle, but it's worth noting that historical period is quite brief in the whole history of science. I could make a strong case that the majority of major advances in basic science were made during the "gentleman academic" era. Publicly-funded research institutions start to become prominent around the Great War, and their relevance is increasingly challenged (see: the replication crisis). Basic research is more important than the means by which it is funded.
    - wiz21c 8y ago
      Do you imply that, whatever the means to fund basic research, the availbaility of the results is the same (my mental model, albeit simple, is that if research paid by tax payers' money, then results are freely available to tax payers)
    - 8bitsrule 8y ago
      True that the gentleman academics did find much of the more obvious stuff (not to denigrate). I was thinking more after 1850 or so (more like modern times). (Not prepared to parse how much the European finds were in public schools. Good topic!) OTOH, I'll stick by my claim that 'basic research' done by privates -- (Bell notwithstanding ... e.g. Jansky was looking to solve a -private- problem, not discover radioastronomy) and especially nowadays -- is much likelier to have a particular pecuniary bias. So, not so 'basic'. Unlike, say, NASA.
- eksemplar 8y ago
  The thing about for profit companies is that they rarely advance the world significantly. Almost everything you enjoy in modern life was build first by public funding. The water in your tap, the electricity in your walls, the roads and bridges you drive on, hell, even the Internet was made by the army and TOR was made by the navy. What had for profit organizations really given us? I mean, they have obviously given us a lot, the Internet would be pretty dull without for profit organisations, but they often aren’t good at making new things. There is a reason you’re still using the email protocol, it’s next to impossible to make a standard when for profit organizations take over, and it’s really the same with mosquito mass murder. This is great for Australia, but if an African country wants to do the same thing they either have to start from scratch or pay.
  - pgaddict 8y ago
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvPbj9NX0zc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvPbj9NX0zc
- naravara 8y ago
  >I don't see what the problem is if the for-profit companies goals align with theirs. It socializes the risk while privatizing the gains.
3flp 8y ago
Isn't the Wi-Fi patent quite controversial?
Untit1ed 8y ago
Partnering with industry has always been a part of the plan though - that's why it's the Commonwealth Science _and Industrial_ Research Organisation. If CSIRO doesn't partner with industry you end up with debacles like the wifi lawsuit.
Eridrus 8y ago
> contribute public funding towards the private investment goals Is this actually happening, or is this just speculation?
- IntelMiner 8y ago
  The CSIRO has suffered enormous staff and funding cuts in recent years under the current government
  - zizee 8y ago
    It sounds like the current government's proposed 2018 budget will be a net gain for science investment: https://www.gizmodo.com.au/2018/05/is-the-2018-federal-budget-good-for-science/ https://www.gizmodo.com.au/2018/05/is-the-2018-federal-budge... https://www.science.org.au/news-and-events/news-and-media-releases/good-outcomes-science-budget-2018-0 https://www.science.org.au/news-and-events/news-and-media-re...
- BurningFrog 8y ago
  It does sound odd that the agency (1) doesn't have enough money to do meaningful research, but (2) can contribute more money than Alphabet can afford.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

pm90 8y ago

I don't see what the problem is if the for-profit companies goals align with theirs.

NamTaf 8y ago
It's more a reflection on the fact that our governments have successively cut CSIRO's funding again and again despite their demonstrated return on investment and notable achievements.
- enneff 8y ago
  Indeed. The most recent governments' hostility toward scientific research has been hugely damaging to the research community in Australia. The CSIRO were once an amazing asset to the world, now with their funding slashed dramatically there are many brilliant teams without the resources to develop their ideas. So disappointing and frustrating to watch. :-(
  - BigJono 8y ago
    They are and always have been a bunch of anti-intellectual religious zealots. I'm not sure what anyone was expecting. There's still too many people drinking the kool-aid to say it now, but I'd be very surprised if by 2050, Tony Abbott isn't considered the worst PM in Australian history.
    - electricwater 8y ago
      I think Tony Abbott moved to the Republic of Gilead.
    - hydrox24 8y ago
      > "anti-intellectual religious zealots" This is a ridiculous thing to say. Curtin, Hawke, and Gillard all left the faiths they were raised in, and the first two Prime Ministers were Spiritualist (no dogma, not really zealots) and Unitarian (no supernatural belief) respectively. Australia is not a country in which accusations of zealotry can be fairly levelled. If you'll allow me to ignore the non-sequiter about Abbott, it's worth pointing out that while he did cut CSIRO funding, as much to my disappointment as it was to yours, it wasn't really unprecedented, with funding experiencing lows that were similar under Hawke and Howard.[0] We ought to fund public research better in this country. We can afford it. But we don't have to use silly name-calling to get there. [0]: https://theconversation.com/infographic-how-much-does-australia-spend-on-science-and-research-61094 https://theconversation.com/infographic-how-much-does-austra...
      - enneff 8y ago
        I think they were referring to the previous two Coalition governments. Abbott was certainly a religious zealot.
- thomasfedb 8y ago
  As a scientist in training this is hugely demoralizing. The CSIRO is an amazing institution — with an excellent sense of humour on social media. We should be proud as punch about CSIRO's achievements, and ensure that they are enabled to continue their laudable work.
- testaccount7 8y ago
  Didn't know about CSIRO's earlier inventions, awesome
- bko 8y ago
  Really? It seems pretty steady although it has ticked down slightly as a percentage of gdp since 2012. And looking at spending as a percentage of gdp is a bit misleading, as funding may increase but not at the same pace as gdp growth. I think a more meaningful measure would be real dollars. CSIRO funding over time 2012-2013 733.8 2013-2014 778.2 2014-2015 745.3 2015-2016 750.3 Do you think that high extra 28mm to attain that high water mark of 2013-2014 funding would have made the big impact? Maybe 2017-2018 are dramatically lower and if they are, please provide a source. http://www.arc.gov.au/sites/default/files/filedepot/Public/Media%20&%20Resources%20Centre/Presentations/graphics/2016/Selected_research_agencies_2003to2016_million.jpg http://www.arc.gov.au/sites/default/files/filedepot/Public/M... http://theconversation.com/infographic-how-much-does-australia-spend-on-science-and-research-61094 http://theconversation.com/infographic-how-much-does-austral...
  - CompelTechnic 8y ago
    Thanks for keeping things factual.
  - NamTaf 8y ago
    Thanks for pointing that out and correcting me. I'd not followed it personally since the Abbott prime-minstership and didn't realise that Turnbull had actually reversed the inital plan to cut $115m over 5 years. The first year of that was the ~30m reduction in 2014-15 that your data shows. I hope the 2016-17 figure continues that trend. Again, thanks for fact-checking me. I appreciate the correction!
martalist 8y ago
The "if" is the problem. How many projects are they unable to work on because no for-profit company is interested?
- infectoid 8y ago
  Yep. This is the actual issue. There is less room for blue sky research with less public funding.
bsiemon 8y ago
It depends how on the deal is structured. Public money flows to private hands to fund research. If the research pans out, does any of the profit flow back to the public? Typically not.
drb91 8y ago
The public has no control over the incentives of private corporations, so their goals could change at any time.
- kingofhdds 8y ago
  This argument implies the public controls gov. organizations/departments which is in most cases not true (unless there's some scandal to attract attention).
  - drb91 8y ago
    Well, it’s certainly more true than having any control over a corporation.
8bitsrule 8y ago
It's only a problem if their goals include efficiently getting the most research value out of taxpayer investment, while retaining highly-skilled public employees in a long-lived, scientifically-oriented organization. Historically, a high percentage of major advances in basic science arose in publically-funded org's. The vision tends to be more long-term, the results less utilitarian.
- samatman 8y ago
  I've been known to draw public funds, so I'm not disputing your angle, but it's worth noting that historical period is quite brief in the whole history of science. I could make a strong case that the majority of major advances in basic science were made during the "gentleman academic" era. Publicly-funded research institutions start to become prominent around the Great War, and their relevance is increasingly challenged (see: the replication crisis). Basic research is more important than the means by which it is funded.
  - wiz21c 8y ago
    Do you imply that, whatever the means to fund basic research, the availbaility of the results is the same (my mental model, albeit simple, is that if research paid by tax payers' money, then results are freely available to tax payers)
  - 8bitsrule 8y ago
    True that the gentleman academics did find much of the more obvious stuff (not to denigrate). I was thinking more after 1850 or so (more like modern times). (Not prepared to parse how much the European finds were in public schools. Good topic!) OTOH, I'll stick by my claim that 'basic research' done by privates -- (Bell notwithstanding ... e.g. Jansky was looking to solve a -private- problem, not discover radioastronomy) and especially nowadays -- is much likelier to have a particular pecuniary bias. So, not so 'basic'. Unlike, say, NASA.
eksemplar 8y ago
The thing about for profit companies is that they rarely advance the world significantly. Almost everything you enjoy in modern life was build first by public funding. The water in your tap, the electricity in your walls, the roads and bridges you drive on, hell, even the Internet was made by the army and TOR was made by the navy. What had for profit organizations really given us? I mean, they have obviously given us a lot, the Internet would be pretty dull without for profit organisations, but they often aren’t good at making new things. There is a reason you’re still using the email protocol, it’s next to impossible to make a standard when for profit organizations take over, and it’s really the same with mosquito mass murder. This is great for Australia, but if an African country wants to do the same thing they either have to start from scratch or pay.
- pgaddict 8y ago
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvPbj9NX0zc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvPbj9NX0zc
naravara 8y ago
>I don't see what the problem is if the for-profit companies goals align with theirs. It socializes the risk while privatizing the gains.

3flp 8y ago

Isn't the Wi-Fi patent quite controversial?

Untit1ed 8y ago

Partnering with industry has always been a part of the plan though - that's why it's the Commonwealth Science _and Industrial_ Research Organisation. If CSIRO doesn't partner with industry you end up with debacles like the wifi lawsuit.

Eridrus 8y ago

> contribute public funding towards the private investment goals Is this actually happening, or is this just speculation?

IntelMiner 8y ago
The CSIRO has suffered enormous staff and funding cuts in recent years under the current government
- zizee 8y ago
  It sounds like the current government's proposed 2018 budget will be a net gain for science investment: https://www.gizmodo.com.au/2018/05/is-the-2018-federal-budget-good-for-science/ https://www.gizmodo.com.au/2018/05/is-the-2018-federal-budge... https://www.science.org.au/news-and-events/news-and-media-releases/good-outcomes-science-budget-2018-0 https://www.science.org.au/news-and-events/news-and-media-re...
BurningFrog 8y ago
It does sound odd that the agency (1) doesn't have enough money to do meaningful research, but (2) can contribute more money than Alphabet can afford.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]