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You sound like a fairly self aware person. I’m curious - have you considered practicing social skills like making occasional eye contact, etc? Speaking as someo

You sound like a fairly self aware person. I’m curious - have you considered practicing social skills like making occasional eye contact, etc? Speaking as someone with enough “issues” (ability to concentrate deeply, socialization issues, awkwardness around eye contact) that I could apply the autism label to myself if I chose to. The reason I choose not to label myself this way is that I’ve learned to overcome many of my old hangups like avoiding eye contact. It’s true what you say about it holding back your career. When I decided to set out as an entrepreneur I was pretty much forced to up my game in this area. So I did. I can still relate to anyone who struggles with these skills, but I also know it’s possible to overcome them. Somewhere way deep down I’m still a shy awkward dev, but I’ve gotten good at enough at being charming that I can close angel and VC deals. At this point I’m not even sure if the “real me” is the awkward one. Maybe my true nature is gregarious and unafraid, and I only learned how to retreat into my shell as a defense mechanism against chronic childhood abuse, which I’m finally coming to terms with after a solid 20 years of confusion. Anyway, I wish you’d best of luck and I encourage you to challenge yourself (safely) - I really wish more knowledgeable devs would feel empowered to learn these skills and take on higher level business roles. If you don’t do it, all the leadership positions end up being taken by people who are good at being charming but not much else.

kypro 8y ago
I think I came across as a bit of a "victim" in my comment, but the attitude you've described here is very much how I approach life. You can definitely learn social skills, and almost anyone who wants a good career needs to have at least some ability to hold a conversation and be approachable. That said, if you're sufficiently on the spectrum you're probably never going to pass as "normal" but you can be good enough. I guess what upsets me is that I feel like to be successful I have to be less myself. I think you might feel this too based on what you said: > At this point I’m not even sure if the “real me” is the awkward one. So yeah, I do try my best to improve. I have to if I want what's best for the people I love. But I often wish I didn't have to and society would work around my communication preferences instead for a change. There are certainly days I get tired of being someone else and think screw it for better or worse, but I think I'm getting a little better at it every day.
- mmt 8y ago
  > But I often wish I didn't have to and society would work around my communication preferences instead for a change. To me, this echoes an under-emphasized concept when discussing freedom and democracies, and things like free speech in online forums and search engines: the danger of "tyranny of the majority". It also underscores the importance of true diversity, diversity of thought, which can include forcing oneself to think differently by, for example, working around the communication preferences of the minority.
- mindgam3 8y ago
  > I guess what upsets me is that I feel like to be successful I have to be less myself. I think you might feel this too based on what you said Actually, my point was the exact opposite. The "awkward me" isn't the real me. It's the version of myself that I constructed in order to survive my seriously dysfunctional childhood raised by a mother with a PhD from Harvard in child psychology who was deliberately trying to interfere with my socialization. For example, making me skip a grade, I was a small kid, so I ended up in junior high a foot shorter than all of my peers. Another great example is making me take a job closing down a pool from 9-10pm every night during high school, with the express purpose (unknown to me) of ensuring that I wouldn't be able to hang out with friends at night. My point is, my entire sense of self had been constructed for me, but it was a false one. After many years, a deeper version of myself has emerged, one that's more true in some sense. From the perspective of my old self, this new self is "fake", and vice versa. Based on the available data, I've concluded that the real me is actually just fine, and all I needed to do was a few decades of therapy/yoga/psychedelics/meditation/breakdowns in order to come out of my shell. In your case, I would be careful about wishing that society would work around your communication preferences. If by preferences you mean "I want to be able to violate social norms around eye contact and politeness and get away with it", then I'd say it would be more constructive for you to change, rather than society. I'd also note that if you're in a position of power, like someone's boss, or even the prized developer, this puts you in a privileged position to break social norms because there's a risk to whoever dares to call you out. Don't be one of those bosses, or one of those developers.
Chyzwar 8y ago
One of the perks of autism/asperger is the obsessive focus on things that interest you. One important distinction between someone that is just naturally shy are problems with empathy. You can fix some non-verbal communication aspects but it is better to invest in listening skills. By listening to what others are saying you can relate better and increase your likebility. I disagree that you can "fix" people in the autism spectrum. It just is not cost effective and most will never feel good in business roles. Most will be natural born experts where most business roles are jacks-of-all-trades.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
TrinaryWorksToo 8y ago
At least for me I've learned all these things but it can be so mentally taxing that I have a hard time doing it.
mercer 8y ago
> The reason I choose not to label myself this way is that I’ve learned to overcome many of my old hangups like avoiding eye contact. It’s true what you say about it holding back your career. When I decided to set out as an entrepreneur I was pretty much forced to up my game in this area. So I did. I can still relate to anyone who struggles with these skills, but I also know it’s possible to overcome them. While I'd say I also have had some success overcoming my struggles with autism, I think "it's possible to overcome them" is a bold and possibly harmful claim. Depending on the particulars, this might very well not be possible for some people with autism. Another important point, I think, is that there's a difference between 'overcoming' and 'managing' autism-related issues. I consider myself very lucky that I've learned how to blend in well, but one downside I've found is that no matter how well I am able to act normal, my being often isn't, and doing too much of the acting can be exhausting, anxiety-inducing and even harmful. Figuring out how 'far' to go in this regard, and when to turn on the 'normal scripts' is one of my main goals. That said, I do agree that practicing and not putting too much weight on labels can be helpful!

kypro 8y ago

I think I came across as a bit of a "victim" in my comment, but the attitude you've described here is very much how I approach life. You can definitely learn social skills, and almost anyone who wants a good career needs to have at least some ability to hold a conversation and be approachable. That said, if you're sufficiently on the spectrum you're probably never going to pass as "normal" but you can be good enough. I guess what upsets me is that I feel like to be successful I have to be less myself. I think you might feel this too based on what you said: > At this point I’m not even sure if the “real me” is the awkward one. So yeah, I do try my best to improve. I have to if I want what's best for the people I love. But I often wish I didn't have to and society would work around my communication preferences instead for a change. There are certainly days I get tired of being someone else and think screw it for better or worse, but I think I'm getting a little better at it every day.

mmt 8y ago
> But I often wish I didn't have to and society would work around my communication preferences instead for a change. To me, this echoes an under-emphasized concept when discussing freedom and democracies, and things like free speech in online forums and search engines: the danger of "tyranny of the majority". It also underscores the importance of true diversity, diversity of thought, which can include forcing oneself to think differently by, for example, working around the communication preferences of the minority.
mindgam3 8y ago
> I guess what upsets me is that I feel like to be successful I have to be less myself. I think you might feel this too based on what you said Actually, my point was the exact opposite. The "awkward me" isn't the real me. It's the version of myself that I constructed in order to survive my seriously dysfunctional childhood raised by a mother with a PhD from Harvard in child psychology who was deliberately trying to interfere with my socialization. For example, making me skip a grade, I was a small kid, so I ended up in junior high a foot shorter than all of my peers. Another great example is making me take a job closing down a pool from 9-10pm every night during high school, with the express purpose (unknown to me) of ensuring that I wouldn't be able to hang out with friends at night. My point is, my entire sense of self had been constructed for me, but it was a false one. After many years, a deeper version of myself has emerged, one that's more true in some sense. From the perspective of my old self, this new self is "fake", and vice versa. Based on the available data, I've concluded that the real me is actually just fine, and all I needed to do was a few decades of therapy/yoga/psychedelics/meditation/breakdowns in order to come out of my shell. In your case, I would be careful about wishing that society would work around your communication preferences. If by preferences you mean "I want to be able to violate social norms around eye contact and politeness and get away with it", then I'd say it would be more constructive for you to change, rather than society. I'd also note that if you're in a position of power, like someone's boss, or even the prized developer, this puts you in a privileged position to break social norms because there's a risk to whoever dares to call you out. Don't be one of those bosses, or one of those developers.

Chyzwar 8y ago

One of the perks of autism/asperger is the obsessive focus on things that interest you. One important distinction between someone that is just naturally shy are problems with empathy. You can fix some non-verbal communication aspects but it is better to invest in listening skills. By listening to what others are saying you can relate better and increase your likebility. I disagree that you can "fix" people in the autism spectrum. It just is not cost effective and most will never feel good in business roles. Most will be natural born experts where most business roles are jacks-of-all-trades.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

TrinaryWorksToo 8y ago

At least for me I've learned all these things but it can be so mentally taxing that I have a hard time doing it.

mercer 8y ago

> The reason I choose not to label myself this way is that I’ve learned to overcome many of my old hangups like avoiding eye contact. It’s true what you say about it holding back your career. When I decided to set out as an entrepreneur I was pretty much forced to up my game in this area. So I did. I can still relate to anyone who struggles with these skills, but I also know it’s possible to overcome them. While I'd say I also have had some success overcoming my struggles with autism, I think "it's possible to overcome them" is a bold and possibly harmful claim. Depending on the particulars, this might very well not be possible for some people with autism. Another important point, I think, is that there's a difference between 'overcoming' and 'managing' autism-related issues. I consider myself very lucky that I've learned how to blend in well, but one downside I've found is that no matter how well I am able to act normal, my being often isn't, and doing too much of the acting can be exhausting, anxiety-inducing and even harmful. Figuring out how 'far' to go in this regard, and when to turn on the 'normal scripts' is one of my main goals. That said, I do agree that practicing and not putting too much weight on labels can be helpful!