4 ms·

There are lots of experiences that are very specific to technical people. These experiences are not easily communicated. It's possible that we all go through

There are lots of experiences that are very specific to technical people. These experiences are not easily communicated. It's possible that we all go through similar quirky experiences that yield absurd and seemingly arrogant behavior because of these particular intracicies of working so closely with machines. It's also nice to have personal privacy when we know we are responsible for so much data and information about people. It's possible that this winds up looking like arrogance, but isn't actually. It's just people going through a thing that honestly, most humans just don't go through. Not every person experiences life in the following way. I'm around tons of people I could see as arrogant or judgemental or whatever ( and myself the same, if not much more so than everyone else I know ) but honestly it's more like, when software doesn't work correctly, there becomes an odd sort of recurrence relation between the source of the issue and the outlet, and how that maps onto how one sees their self and others. And I honestly think most people who work with machines are so used to seeing that pattern that they understand the dynamic enough to not judge, just slowly hope their additions to the systems they work on get noticed enough to improve the whole process. So yes, it's an inability to communicate, but we understand one another, because we can explain it with math or code, which most people don't care about. Golden rule. You don't give a shit about my knowledge, I don't give a crap about yours. If you think I'm being arrogant, please try to figure out whether you'd actually like to experience life like this first, where everything is chaos and crazy and nothing the world says makes sense, because most people just don't want to deal with the details of actually understanding how hard it is to get a machine to do exactly what they want it to do, and how hard it is to avoid having that character defect mapping over into one's own social life at all times, as though one must be on constant guard for the oh so you're terrible exhibition of being both aware of being smart, and actually being intelligent at the same time. We don't have social skills like most people. That's fine. Why is that a bad thing? Those people wear lack of knowledge of logic and mathematics as though it were some badge to be proud of. Which is again, fine! Just don't force me into your archetype of having social skills.

commandlinefan 8y ago
> winds up looking like arrogance I'm seeing more and more accusations of arrogance leveled at "engineers" (but usually they mean programmers). I think this is because they're no longer allowed to stuff us in our lockers and push our heads in the toilets, so they have to be more subtle when they bully us.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- pdimitar 8y ago
  This is very likely true, sadly. Doesn't help them that some of us grew to be big men with karate and aikido background either. So they try to vent insecurity through other venues. These days I just laugh in such situations.
s73v3r_ 8y ago
"We don't have social skills like most people. That's fine. Why is that a bad thing? Those people wear lack of knowledge of logic and mathematics as though it were some badge to be proud of. Which is again, fine! Just don't force me into your archetype of having social skills." Far too often, "lack of social skills" is used as an excuse for being a jerk, and refusing to think about what their words and their actions.
- wolfgke 8y ago
  > Far too often, "lack of social skills" is used as an excuse for being a jerk, and refusing to think about what their words and their actions. I disagree. If you have a very bad model of how something is perceived by others, you will commit blunders. And if you think in a very different way than your counterpart, you often have such a very bad model. Most people act similarly clumsily towards "engineers"/"programmers", but because they think as the majority thinks, this is not called "social inaptitude", though it is exactly the same problem (perople talking to each other who are "wired very differently").
  - s-shellfish 8y ago
    And if you repeatedly commit blunders on accident, that are repeatedly called out by a majority, this whole situation has just magnified the problem by a non-trivial factor. Because you are literally telling a person 'don't do things on this list' ... Okay ... What can I do? 'oh, figure it out' Why does it not make sense that people like this have to be acutely intelligent super insanely fast? You've basically been conditioned to solve a problem that is np hard because every new person has different preferences and every old person eventually gets tired of you not adapting to them quickly enough. And honestly, the bottom line is this all may happen because of something insanely stupid - like having acne, freckles, a big nose, whatever. So you can never win with these people! And eventually you realize that and find real friends, and we all live happily ever after, just like everyone else is allowed to. The end.
    - s73v3r_ 8y ago
      "And if you repeatedly commit blunders on accident" Once or twice is an accident. "Repeatedly" demonstrates an unwillingness to change.
archagon 8y ago
Perhaps I'm not the deepest programmer in the world, but I really can't relate to much of this at all. To me, there's no contradiction in being a technical person and acting in a pleasant manner to the people around me. (Maybe it's a matter of perspective. I enjoy programming, but I mostly view it as a tool for improving people-things: making art, solving problems, expanding human potential. The human elements must always be at the forefront, and the machine is just not something I care very much about, except as a means to an end.)
- pdimitar 8y ago
  I might be projecting and misinterpreting here but I think your parent commenter meant that programmers are being flat out judged preliminarily, before people actually get to know them as persons. I myself encountered a lot of bias due to the sheer fact of sharing that I am a programmer -- even if only when asked (as I get older, I more and more hate to say anything that sounds like boasting). But I shrug it off as these people just feeling insecure; most of them probably realize your brain is much better trained than theirs -- or at least in the mechanical and creative department -- and they go on an ego-saving trip trying to demean you. Bad luck for them that I am one of the best roasters I've met for my 38 years. Some even tried unsuccessfully to turn physically violent only because I defended myself with a good roasting counter-joke that made everybody on the table laugh. Pretty hilarious at times, I have to tell you. But, you know, the rest 95% of the time, people just immediately put you into a group they dislike but don't have the balls to say or do anything; they just stare at you disapprovingly. Or they are actually open-minded. The situations showed in the article don't happen that often as the author makes it sound, IMO.

commandlinefan 8y ago

> winds up looking like arrogance I'm seeing more and more accusations of arrogance leveled at "engineers" (but usually they mean programmers). I think this is because they're no longer allowed to stuff us in our lockers and push our heads in the toilets, so they have to be more subtle when they bully us.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
pdimitar 8y ago
This is very likely true, sadly. Doesn't help them that some of us grew to be big men with karate and aikido background either. So they try to vent insecurity through other venues. These days I just laugh in such situations.

s73v3r_ 8y ago

"We don't have social skills like most people. That's fine. Why is that a bad thing? Those people wear lack of knowledge of logic and mathematics as though it were some badge to be proud of. Which is again, fine! Just don't force me into your archetype of having social skills." Far too often, "lack of social skills" is used as an excuse for being a jerk, and refusing to think about what their words and their actions.

wolfgke 8y ago
> Far too often, "lack of social skills" is used as an excuse for being a jerk, and refusing to think about what their words and their actions. I disagree. If you have a very bad model of how something is perceived by others, you will commit blunders. And if you think in a very different way than your counterpart, you often have such a very bad model. Most people act similarly clumsily towards "engineers"/"programmers", but because they think as the majority thinks, this is not called "social inaptitude", though it is exactly the same problem (perople talking to each other who are "wired very differently").
- s-shellfish 8y ago
  And if you repeatedly commit blunders on accident, that are repeatedly called out by a majority, this whole situation has just magnified the problem by a non-trivial factor. Because you are literally telling a person 'don't do things on this list' ... Okay ... What can I do? 'oh, figure it out' Why does it not make sense that people like this have to be acutely intelligent super insanely fast? You've basically been conditioned to solve a problem that is np hard because every new person has different preferences and every old person eventually gets tired of you not adapting to them quickly enough. And honestly, the bottom line is this all may happen because of something insanely stupid - like having acne, freckles, a big nose, whatever. So you can never win with these people! And eventually you realize that and find real friends, and we all live happily ever after, just like everyone else is allowed to. The end.
  - s73v3r_ 8y ago
    "And if you repeatedly commit blunders on accident" Once or twice is an accident. "Repeatedly" demonstrates an unwillingness to change.

archagon 8y ago

Perhaps I'm not the deepest programmer in the world, but I really can't relate to much of this at all. To me, there's no contradiction in being a technical person and acting in a pleasant manner to the people around me. (Maybe it's a matter of perspective. I enjoy programming, but I mostly view it as a tool for improving people-things: making art, solving problems, expanding human potential. The human elements must always be at the forefront, and the machine is just not something I care very much about, except as a means to an end.)

pdimitar 8y ago
I might be projecting and misinterpreting here but I think your parent commenter meant that programmers are being flat out judged preliminarily, before people actually get to know them as persons. I myself encountered a lot of bias due to the sheer fact of sharing that I am a programmer -- even if only when asked (as I get older, I more and more hate to say anything that sounds like boasting). But I shrug it off as these people just feeling insecure; most of them probably realize your brain is much better trained than theirs -- or at least in the mechanical and creative department -- and they go on an ego-saving trip trying to demean you. Bad luck for them that I am one of the best roasters I've met for my 38 years. Some even tried unsuccessfully to turn physically violent only because I defended myself with a good roasting counter-joke that made everybody on the table laugh. Pretty hilarious at times, I have to tell you. But, you know, the rest 95% of the time, people just immediately put you into a group they dislike but don't have the balls to say or do anything; they just stare at you disapprovingly. Or they are actually open-minded. The situations showed in the article don't happen that often as the author makes it sound, IMO.