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Backward-compatibility is one thing but forward-compatibility is something else entirely. I upgraded a whole java shop to java8 and it was not a fun experience

Backward-compatibility is one thing but forward-compatibility is something else entirely. I upgraded a whole java shop to java8 and it was not a fun experience having two JVMs on the same machine and all the different tools thought they knew which one was the correct one but none of them agreed (it wasn't as simple as setting JAVA_HOME). All of this java tooling/versioning is simple in theory since java is a pretty simple ecosystem (compared to something like C++ or even python to an extent), but there's so many layers of indirection in a modern build & deployment system that it's really painful to debug when some tool somewhere sets its PATH incorrectly or doesn't respect JAVA_HOME or symlinks or....) If the apps had been docker-ized there wouldn't have needed to be a JVM on the host machine at all, and teams could come in and use java9 or whatever without having to work with SREs/devops to upgrade the machines and worry about whatever other apps may be using those machines or virtual-machine images.

lmm 8y ago
> I upgraded a whole java shop to java8 and it was not a fun experience having two JVMs on the same machine and all the different tools thought they knew which one was the correct one but none of them agreed (it wasn't as simple as setting JAVA_HOME). I agree that having two JVMs on the same machine without something like docker can be problematic, but in my experience there's no need to ever do that - the backwards compatibility is good enough that you can just replace the old JVM with the new one. I mean, if you're worrying about this kind of thing shouldn't you also worry about whether apps are built against older versions of docker? How easy is it to have two different versions of docker on the same machine and make sure that docker upgrades don't impact other apps running on those machines?

lmm 8y ago

> I upgraded a whole java shop to java8 and it was not a fun experience having two JVMs on the same machine and all the different tools thought they knew which one was the correct one but none of them agreed (it wasn't as simple as setting JAVA_HOME). I agree that having two JVMs on the same machine without something like docker can be problematic, but in my experience there's no need to ever do that - the backwards compatibility is good enough that you can just replace the old JVM with the new one. I mean, if you're worrying about this kind of thing shouldn't you also worry about whether apps are built against older versions of docker? How easy is it to have two different versions of docker on the same machine and make sure that docker upgrades don't impact other apps running on those machines?