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How many ground breaking innovations has China had? How many has the west had? Case in point, copying is not productive in the long run.

sho 8y ago
People said that about Japan 40 years, they said that about Korea 20 years ago, and it's already becoming irrelevant about China today. Yes, they caught up by copying, like everyone else did (including the USA). There are now entire product categories which come out of China and no-where else. Drones. Camera gymbals. Personal electric scooters. Heck, their entire system of government could be called "innovative" - certainly no-one else has ever tried that before. Give it 20 years and it'll be onto the next developing country which is copying to catch up, and China will be amongst the lead innovators - if not, as I suspect, the easy winner.
- dredmorbius 8y ago
  Or of the United States in the early 19th century. The 1851 Crystal Palace exposition was quite a shock.
  - sho 8y ago
    Care to expand on that? Why was the 1851 Expo a shock?
    - dredmorbius 8y ago
      Because the US was considered a backwater at the time by Europe, Britain particularly. Merrit Roe Smith, STS.050, MIT https://youtube.com/watch?v=Fw92I_zpmRU https://youtube.com/watch?v=Fw92I_zpmRU
- Sangermaine 8y ago
  >Heck, their entire system of government could be called "innovative" - certainly no-one else has ever tried that before. Authoritarian one-party rule with a strongman at the top is nothing new, they just have newer tools to enforce it.
  - sho 8y ago
    Every shelf at your local store filled with imports from that one-party state is pretty new in my book. And "strongman"? What are you basing that on? Saddam Hussein was a "strongman". Xi Jinping is unusually powerful for the president of the CCP, sure, but he still needs to be re-elected in 2022.
jacquesm 8y ago
Steam engine? Gun powder? Paper? Movable type? Clocks, compass, alcohol and on and on. Really this is a 'What did the Romans ever do for us?' type of question.
Hasknewbie 8y ago
As @jacquesm noted, you kind of picked the wrong target there. But to get to the root of your argument: accepting copying as normal does not mean "no innovation", but "different innovation". Does that mean ground-breaking stuff would pop up noticeably less often? Possibly. But it's also likely that once released these products would iteratively reach a higher level of quality than what we have now (I cannot equate "learning from the masters" with the existence of Windows 8 or Gnome 3, for example). Different paths, but headed the same way.
ryandrake 8y ago
That’s the point: what makes “innovation” so good and noble, and duplication so bad? Why is originality the measuring stick? I happen to think an inexpensive copy of a useful product is far better than a newly invented product that’s expensive or less useful. Example: Cheap generic drugs vs expensive patented name brands.
- epicide 8y ago
  Exactly. The obsession with "innovation" is how you get feature creep. You can improve something by copying it and figuring out how to do it easier/cheaper/quicker.
epicide 8y ago
The point isn't that the west hasn't copied things. The point is that the west puts emphasis on originality and "innovation" and downplays the value of copying. Learn to do it right (copy), then figure out how to do it better (innovate).
dredmorbius 8y ago
How many ground breaking innovations has China had? Quite an impressive number. Enough to fill over 27 volumes in a project spanning nearly 70 years: Joseph Needham's epic Science and Civilisation in China. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_and_Civilisation_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_and_Civilisation_in_Ch...
sctb 8y ago
This is a tired and myopic dismissal and we can't learn anything from it. Could you please increase the level of substance in your posts? https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
namlem 8y ago
For most of human history, China was the most advanced civilization in the world.

sho 8y ago

People said that about Japan 40 years, they said that about Korea 20 years ago, and it's already becoming irrelevant about China today. Yes, they caught up by copying, like everyone else did (including the USA). There are now entire product categories which come out of China and no-where else. Drones. Camera gymbals. Personal electric scooters. Heck, their entire system of government could be called "innovative" - certainly no-one else has ever tried that before. Give it 20 years and it'll be onto the next developing country which is copying to catch up, and China will be amongst the lead innovators - if not, as I suspect, the easy winner.

dredmorbius 8y ago
Or of the United States in the early 19th century. The 1851 Crystal Palace exposition was quite a shock.
- sho 8y ago
  Care to expand on that? Why was the 1851 Expo a shock?
  - dredmorbius 8y ago
    Because the US was considered a backwater at the time by Europe, Britain particularly. Merrit Roe Smith, STS.050, MIT https://youtube.com/watch?v=Fw92I_zpmRU https://youtube.com/watch?v=Fw92I_zpmRU
Sangermaine 8y ago
>Heck, their entire system of government could be called "innovative" - certainly no-one else has ever tried that before. Authoritarian one-party rule with a strongman at the top is nothing new, they just have newer tools to enforce it.
- sho 8y ago
  Every shelf at your local store filled with imports from that one-party state is pretty new in my book. And "strongman"? What are you basing that on? Saddam Hussein was a "strongman". Xi Jinping is unusually powerful for the president of the CCP, sure, but he still needs to be re-elected in 2022.

jacquesm 8y ago

Steam engine? Gun powder? Paper? Movable type? Clocks, compass, alcohol and on and on. Really this is a 'What did the Romans ever do for us?' type of question.

Hasknewbie 8y ago

As @jacquesm noted, you kind of picked the wrong target there. But to get to the root of your argument: accepting copying as normal does not mean "no innovation", but "different innovation". Does that mean ground-breaking stuff would pop up noticeably less often? Possibly. But it's also likely that once released these products would iteratively reach a higher level of quality than what we have now (I cannot equate "learning from the masters" with the existence of Windows 8 or Gnome 3, for example). Different paths, but headed the same way.

ryandrake 8y ago

That’s the point: what makes “innovation” so good and noble, and duplication so bad? Why is originality the measuring stick? I happen to think an inexpensive copy of a useful product is far better than a newly invented product that’s expensive or less useful. Example: Cheap generic drugs vs expensive patented name brands.

epicide 8y ago
Exactly. The obsession with "innovation" is how you get feature creep. You can improve something by copying it and figuring out how to do it easier/cheaper/quicker.

epicide 8y ago

The point isn't that the west hasn't copied things. The point is that the west puts emphasis on originality and "innovation" and downplays the value of copying. Learn to do it right (copy), then figure out how to do it better (innovate).

dredmorbius 8y ago

How many ground breaking innovations has China had? Quite an impressive number. Enough to fill over 27 volumes in a project spanning nearly 70 years: Joseph Needham's epic Science and Civilisation in China. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_and_Civilisation_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_and_Civilisation_in_Ch...

sctb 8y ago

This is a tired and myopic dismissal and we can't learn anything from it. Could you please increase the level of substance in your posts? https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

namlem 8y ago

For most of human history, China was the most advanced civilization in the world.