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You're arguing the point that because his help wasn't needed in the end that he shouldn't have offered to help. But it's conceivable that his expertise could h

by rusk 8y ago

You're arguing the point that because his help wasn't needed in the end that he shouldn't have offered to help. But it's conceivable that his expertise could have been useful. Did any other organisations offer subterranean expertise? Genuine question, e.g. mining companies, drilling, or was it just that Musk made the most noise about it?

emodendroket 8y ago
My impression was that this was not a good-faith effort to help but rather to be seen to be helping, without any concern for whether his efforts were useful.
- rusk 8y ago
  Which is itself a bad faith evaluation. I'd prefer to be kinder and thus keep the door open for other such "help" in the future. Fundamentally, he didn't do any harm.
jcranmer 8y ago
Actually, I believe that other people were exploring the options of drilling a rescue tunnel from the surface. IIRC, there was even the beginning of projects to make a usable tunnel launch site for such a rescue tunnel.
- rusk 8y ago
  Right, and so you don't think the expertise he was providing could have been valuable there?
  - jcranmer 8y ago
    Honestly, no.
    - rusk 8y ago
      Based on what.
      - jcranmer 8y ago
        The expertise you'd want for drilling an emergency rescue tunnel would be a combination of skills related to drilling roughly pipe-sized vertical shafts [1] (mining/oil services, or maybe the companies themselves; I don't know what the exact breakdown of work packages end up being) and remote (specifically mountainous and jungle, in this case) infrastructure and logistics, which is military or again mining/oil services. Possibly a geologist or two on hand to assess the rock layers and identify hydrographic hazards as well as risks such as accidentally causing cave-ins. For the cave diving extraction, you'd want experienced cave divers, ideally ones with good first aid knowledge and cave rescue experience. For any further expertise, I wouldn't suggest anything without hearing the observations from the cave divers who have just explored the cave themselves. There is no evidence presented that Musk, nor any of his companies, has any of this kind of useful expertise. [1] Emphasis here on vertical shafts. There is a world of difference between a tunnel-boring machine that tends to remain within a single geological stratum and a vertical shaft that is constantly cutting through several strata of different kinds of rock (that require different cutting techniques).
        rusk 8y ago
        I think you're winging it. > There is no evidence presented that Musk, nor any of his companies, has any of this kind of useful expertise https://www.boringcompany.com/faq/ https://www.boringcompany.com/faq/ > There is a world of difference between a tunnel-boring machine Yeah it wasn't the machine he was offering but the expertise. I get it, you've got it in for Musk. Fair enough, and I'm not out to hero worship him but lets be fair here - he did offer to help, and did so in good faith.
        jcranmer 8y ago
        I added the footnote to emphasize why I thought The Boring Company was not relevant expertise, which you seem to have ignored or missed. Considering that Musk touted what SpaceX could do for the trapped people, not what The Boring Company could do, I also suspect that Musk recognizes the difference. My contention isn't that Musk didn't make a good-faith offer to help, it's that Musk didn't have anything useful to offer. The end result is that would come across as something like this: https://xkcd.com/793/ https://xkcd.com/793/.

by rusk 8y ago

emodendroket 8y ago

My impression was that this was not a good-faith effort to help but rather to be seen to be helping, without any concern for whether his efforts were useful.

rusk 8y ago
Which is itself a bad faith evaluation. I'd prefer to be kinder and thus keep the door open for other such "help" in the future. Fundamentally, he didn't do any harm.

jcranmer 8y ago

Actually, I believe that other people were exploring the options of drilling a rescue tunnel from the surface. IIRC, there was even the beginning of projects to make a usable tunnel launch site for such a rescue tunnel.

rusk 8y ago
Right, and so you don't think the expertise he was providing could have been valuable there?
- jcranmer 8y ago
  Honestly, no.
  - rusk 8y ago
    Based on what.
    - jcranmer 8y ago
      The expertise you'd want for drilling an emergency rescue tunnel would be a combination of skills related to drilling roughly pipe-sized vertical shafts [1] (mining/oil services, or maybe the companies themselves; I don't know what the exact breakdown of work packages end up being) and remote (specifically mountainous and jungle, in this case) infrastructure and logistics, which is military or again mining/oil services. Possibly a geologist or two on hand to assess the rock layers and identify hydrographic hazards as well as risks such as accidentally causing cave-ins. For the cave diving extraction, you'd want experienced cave divers, ideally ones with good first aid knowledge and cave rescue experience. For any further expertise, I wouldn't suggest anything without hearing the observations from the cave divers who have just explored the cave themselves. There is no evidence presented that Musk, nor any of his companies, has any of this kind of useful expertise. [1] Emphasis here on vertical shafts. There is a world of difference between a tunnel-boring machine that tends to remain within a single geological stratum and a vertical shaft that is constantly cutting through several strata of different kinds of rock (that require different cutting techniques).
      - rusk 8y ago
        I think you're winging it. > There is no evidence presented that Musk, nor any of his companies, has any of this kind of useful expertise https://www.boringcompany.com/faq/ https://www.boringcompany.com/faq/ > There is a world of difference between a tunnel-boring machine Yeah it wasn't the machine he was offering but the expertise. I get it, you've got it in for Musk. Fair enough, and I'm not out to hero worship him but lets be fair here - he did offer to help, and did so in good faith.
        jcranmer 8y ago
        I added the footnote to emphasize why I thought The Boring Company was not relevant expertise, which you seem to have ignored or missed. Considering that Musk touted what SpaceX could do for the trapped people, not what The Boring Company could do, I also suspect that Musk recognizes the difference. My contention isn't that Musk didn't make a good-faith offer to help, it's that Musk didn't have anything useful to offer. The end result is that would come across as something like this: https://xkcd.com/793/ https://xkcd.com/793/.