6 ms·

I was thinking about the debate on scooters and it made me realize something: Bike lanes are a disaster, probably one of the biggest mistakes in road design an

I was thinking about the debate on scooters and it made me realize something: Bike lanes are a disaster, probably one of the biggest mistakes in road design and planning. The basic idea was sound, but it was done the wrong way. Everywhere you see a bike lane, that should've been the concrete sidewalk extended into that area with a painted stripe separating pedestrians and bicycles. Go to a beach and you can see the correct implementation. Our sidewalks are simply not wide enough. What we have now is a cheap and bad solution. Nobody on bikes, scooter, etc. wants to be just a thin painted stripe away from cars that can kill them. But they are forbidden from sidewalks because they are too narrow. The right way to add bike lanes would've been to extend the sidewalks into the road (where the current bike lanes are) by pouring concrete there. Full protection from cars, wide enough for pedestrians and bicycles, scooters, etc. It's not too late to fix this, the bike lanes are there. Cities just need to spend the money to expand the sidewalks there. If they do this, there's potential for a true revolution in non-car mobility in the US.

whelchel 8y ago
There is some merit to that idea but I think you may be missing a few things. Often, parking is placed between a bike lane and the side walk. Bikes need to be able to cross lanes, often in cities, to make left turns. How can they do that when they're up on a curb to start, but additionally, with potential street parking in the way? I think technically in many jurisdictions, bikes are to be treated as vehicles. Whether or not they're always treated that way is up for debate (and vice versa), but it may explain also partially why things were done that way.
- tedunangst 8y ago
  People in wheelchairs find ways to cross the street.
- KozmoNau7 8y ago
  Put the parking between the road and the bike lane/sidewalk instead. That's how most city streets are laid out in Copenhagen, af it provides a good safety buffer of parked cars.
  - azernik 8y ago
    Also how Oakland does it on Telegraph. San Francisco has switched to this solution on some streets (Folsom and Howard). This doesn't include putting the bikes on the same grade as the sidewalk, but that's a relatively minor difference once you already have parked cars separating you from car traffic.
- dluong 8y ago
  Bikes should not be crossing lanes along with traffic to make left turns, they should do what pedestrians do. Cross along one direction on the sidewalk, then cross in the 2nd direction. Bikes should not mix in with traffic, it's just chaos and safety issues all around.
  - KozmoNau7 8y ago
    Absolutely agree. Bikes in left turn lanes are hugely dangerous. They should go straight across, stop at the corner and then turn to go straight the other direction, when the light turns green. I know some people get annoyed that it's slightly slower, but you avoid some seriously dangerous situations.
Silfen 8y ago
This is something that is well-known in planning circles. In Seattle there have been a huge number of road diet (widening the sidewalk and redesigning the road for slower traffic speeds) + protected bike lanes coming online. Pedestrians benefit from this, too, from the increased safety and the other pleasant effects of traffic calming. Here's a map: http://seattlecitygis.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=a24b25c3142c49e194190d6a888d97e3 http://seattlecitygis.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/inde... And there are a number of ongoing projects. See: https://www.seattle.gov/transportation/projects-and-programs/programs/bike-program/protected-bike-lanes https://www.seattle.gov/transportation/projects-and-programs...
cncrnd 8y ago
Yeah, I don't understand how cyclists can put so much trust in every single car that drives by them. All it takes is one distracted driver and you get serious injury or worse.
- jdavis703 8y ago
  We don't trust them. And negligent drivers are among the easiest to deal with. They're usually swerving, texting, slow to accelerate from lights or parked haphazardly. Most of the time you can give them space when you spot the signs. The scariest ones are the drivers who do close passes, cut you off to turn or scream out threats or profanities.
- KozmoNau7 8y ago
  The #1 lesson I took to heart when I took my motorcycle license was "ride as though every car driver is trying to kill you". When I was handed the license, my instructor told me "congratulations, you are now invisible". You have to ride as if everyone is simultaneously oblivious to your presence and out to run you over all the time.
kgen 8y ago
The only reason it works on a beach is that there aren't drive ways and intersecting streets. Are you proposing that we make the side walks level with the street? If so, then it's no different than what we have now, and if not, then you'll have ramps every block that go from street level and back up to sidewalk level?
notatoad 8y ago
the challenge is that this needs to be done consistently - in my town, they built a raised bike lane beside and level with the sidewalk but only for about 100m. it's red concrete and marked with signs and paint, but everywhere else in town bicycling on sidewalks is illegal. If you dare ride your bike on this "bike lane", you get anything from scowled at to sworn at by pedestrians who think you're biking on "their" sidewalk. and of course, the challenge with doing it consistently, even for a small town, is that it's expensive. retrofitting a bike lane on the asphalt only costs as much as some paint. the cheaper, easier, and move obvious solution is to simply pour a curb separating the bike lane and the car lanes. you don't have to raise the whole bike lane up to sidwalk level, just 6" at the edge. and that's what many cities are doing.
foobar1962 8y ago
> Bike lanes are a disaster... Go to a beach and you can see the correct implementation. I do agree, but the bike lanes in a city CBD need to serve a different purpose from those at the beach. The city bike lanes have a lot of commercial traffic (bike couriers) and people commuting, mostly adults, so they are travelling faster and "with intent". The bike lanes at the beach are for leisure and are much, much slower, without the urgency. A lot more kids on bikes too.
xvedejas 8y ago
They are planning to do this with Market Street in San Francisco. I attended an informational meeting (open to public) about this and other nearby streetscape improvements. Many of the people present were afraid bikes will be running over pedestrians, the fear fueled in part by the recent proliferation of electric scooters. I don't agree that this is the right concern, but I just want to illustrate that the idea might not be popular with the general public.
- Camillo 8y ago
  Have there been any confirmed injuries from people being run over by scooters in San Francisco? I tried a quick search but came up empty.
  - xvedejas 8y ago
    If I recall correctly, the only confirmed injury from the recent influx of scooter sharing was from someone tripping over a parked scooter. But the meeting I'm referring to happened about a year ago, and the fear was mostly geared towards private electric longboards and "hoverboards", I think.
InclinedPlane 8y ago
Have you ever ridden a bike on the sidewalk without any pedestrians to worry about? It's not a good experience. Bike lanes are fine.
conradev 8y ago
It’s not the majority, but Berlin has ~150km of bicycle paths on sidewalks: https://web.archive.org/web/20080922140453/http://www.stadtentwicklung.berlin.de/verkehr/radverkehrsanlagen/en/radwege.shtml https://web.archive.org/web/20080922140453/http://www.stadte... When I was there, I kept walking in the bike lane by accident and ended up upsetting some cyclists.
- rorykoehler 8y ago
  In Berlin I ride on the road
beamatronic 8y ago
I do have faith that all the necessary “revolutions” like this will ultimately get done by the millenial generation.
briandear 8y ago
Check out the way China does it— bike and scooter lanes completely separated from traffic.
Steltek 8y ago
It's been tried and it's really not that easy. - Cars will make turns that cross your protected bike path and with parking in the way, a bike's already minimal visible cross section is reduced even more. - Bikes need to make left turns which is difficult when there are parked cars in the way. - Pedestrians will happily walk everywhere in your bike lane (oblivious to your bell ringing due to headphones), regardless of whatever paint you delineate the two areas. In areas with these kinds of bike lanes, I generally ride in the street with the cars. It's safer and faster.
- KozmoNau7 8y ago
  >"Cars will make turns that cross your protected bike path and with parking in the way, a bike's already minimal visible cross section is reduced even more." Proper turning/bike lane design and prioritized space for cyclists takes good care of this. In lighted intersections, stagger the lights so bikes have priority. >" Bikes need to make left turns which is difficult when there are parked cars in the way." Make bikes do hook turns (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hook_turn https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hook_turn) instead of using the cars' left turn lanes. It's significantly safer and doesn't require bikes to cross traffic lanes. >"Pedestrians will happily walk everywhere in your bike lane (oblivious to your bell ringing due to headphones), regardless of whatever paint you delineate the two areas." Delineate with a curb instead of just a line, to make the separation clear.
  - Steltek 8y ago
    > Proper turning/bike lane design and prioritized space for cyclists takes good care of this. In lighted intersections, stagger the lights so bikes have priority. At the one intersection I'm most familiar with, a separate bike light almost always results in the driver becoming confused and causing a near crash. I've learned to wait a few seconds to avoid being hit. > Make bikes do hook turns (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hook_turn https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hook_turn) instead of using the cars' left turn lanes. It's significantly safer and doesn't require bikes to cross traffic lanes. That takes signficantly longer, as you're guaranteed to sit through at least one signal phase. Again at my favoritist intersection ever, hook turns are what are marked but only newbie bikers use this technique. Everyone else just takes their chances doing something radical so they're no better off.
andymoe 8y ago
This is basically how it is in Japan. Just bigger sidewalks. Bike mostly welcome. Of course this forces them to slow down a bit.
mFixman 8y ago
The part you are missing, like most people who aren't used to exercise and see city planning in a car-centric way, is that a bicycle can go at a serious speed in a city. Bike lanes in sidewalks work in beaches because bikers tend to drive at a comfortable cruising speed. Daily commuters usually bike in the ~15-25mph range in a city (and a lot faster in suburbs and country roads); that speed is dangerous for pedestrians. You are also disregarding turns and intersections, where it's much more convenient to stop as little as possible. The solution to bike lanes is physically separated lanes that don't give lazy car drivers free parking space and don't penalize cyclists for traffic, but still allows them to move to the roads when there aren't many cars as in [1]. [1] https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/image_data/file/49647/S113_Salford_Liverpool_Street_trial_site_stop_line_approach_960x640.jpg https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/...
- trillic 8y ago
  Detroit is using this type of bike lane on all newly renovated roads. Most notably East Jefferson which was just finished.
  - tacorama 8y ago
    I just moved from Detroit but I’m still super excited about the city planning that’s taking place there, in particular the Jefferson calming! Cass has also had protected bike lanes for a little while now and they’re really nice. Detroit is kind of unique in that they have super wide streets that don’t really need to be nearly as wide as they are for the amount of traffic they carry.
rorykoehler 8y ago
As a cyclist, while I see where you are coming from, I would prefer to be on the road. It's much quicker when you are a first class citizen. The solution the dutch have is far better. They have bike roads (not lanes). The way to retro fit this in the US would be to embed physical divider bollards in the road.

whelchel 8y ago

There is some merit to that idea but I think you may be missing a few things. Often, parking is placed between a bike lane and the side walk. Bikes need to be able to cross lanes, often in cities, to make left turns. How can they do that when they're up on a curb to start, but additionally, with potential street parking in the way? I think technically in many jurisdictions, bikes are to be treated as vehicles. Whether or not they're always treated that way is up for debate (and vice versa), but it may explain also partially why things were done that way.

tedunangst 8y ago
People in wheelchairs find ways to cross the street.
KozmoNau7 8y ago
Put the parking between the road and the bike lane/sidewalk instead. That's how most city streets are laid out in Copenhagen, af it provides a good safety buffer of parked cars.
- azernik 8y ago
  Also how Oakland does it on Telegraph. San Francisco has switched to this solution on some streets (Folsom and Howard). This doesn't include putting the bikes on the same grade as the sidewalk, but that's a relatively minor difference once you already have parked cars separating you from car traffic.
dluong 8y ago
Bikes should not be crossing lanes along with traffic to make left turns, they should do what pedestrians do. Cross along one direction on the sidewalk, then cross in the 2nd direction. Bikes should not mix in with traffic, it's just chaos and safety issues all around.
- KozmoNau7 8y ago
  Absolutely agree. Bikes in left turn lanes are hugely dangerous. They should go straight across, stop at the corner and then turn to go straight the other direction, when the light turns green. I know some people get annoyed that it's slightly slower, but you avoid some seriously dangerous situations.

Silfen 8y ago

This is something that is well-known in planning circles. In Seattle there have been a huge number of road diet (widening the sidewalk and redesigning the road for slower traffic speeds) + protected bike lanes coming online. Pedestrians benefit from this, too, from the increased safety and the other pleasant effects of traffic calming. Here's a map: http://seattlecitygis.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=a24b25c3142c49e194190d6a888d97e3 http://seattlecitygis.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/inde... And there are a number of ongoing projects. See: https://www.seattle.gov/transportation/projects-and-programs/programs/bike-program/protected-bike-lanes https://www.seattle.gov/transportation/projects-and-programs...

cncrnd 8y ago

Yeah, I don't understand how cyclists can put so much trust in every single car that drives by them. All it takes is one distracted driver and you get serious injury or worse.

jdavis703 8y ago
We don't trust them. And negligent drivers are among the easiest to deal with. They're usually swerving, texting, slow to accelerate from lights or parked haphazardly. Most of the time you can give them space when you spot the signs. The scariest ones are the drivers who do close passes, cut you off to turn or scream out threats or profanities.
KozmoNau7 8y ago
The #1 lesson I took to heart when I took my motorcycle license was "ride as though every car driver is trying to kill you". When I was handed the license, my instructor told me "congratulations, you are now invisible". You have to ride as if everyone is simultaneously oblivious to your presence and out to run you over all the time.

kgen 8y ago

The only reason it works on a beach is that there aren't drive ways and intersecting streets. Are you proposing that we make the side walks level with the street? If so, then it's no different than what we have now, and if not, then you'll have ramps every block that go from street level and back up to sidewalk level?

notatoad 8y ago

the challenge is that this needs to be done consistently - in my town, they built a raised bike lane beside and level with the sidewalk but only for about 100m. it's red concrete and marked with signs and paint, but everywhere else in town bicycling on sidewalks is illegal. If you dare ride your bike on this "bike lane", you get anything from scowled at to sworn at by pedestrians who think you're biking on "their" sidewalk. and of course, the challenge with doing it consistently, even for a small town, is that it's expensive. retrofitting a bike lane on the asphalt only costs as much as some paint. the cheaper, easier, and move obvious solution is to simply pour a curb separating the bike lane and the car lanes. you don't have to raise the whole bike lane up to sidwalk level, just 6" at the edge. and that's what many cities are doing.

foobar1962 8y ago

> Bike lanes are a disaster... Go to a beach and you can see the correct implementation. I do agree, but the bike lanes in a city CBD need to serve a different purpose from those at the beach. The city bike lanes have a lot of commercial traffic (bike couriers) and people commuting, mostly adults, so they are travelling faster and "with intent". The bike lanes at the beach are for leisure and are much, much slower, without the urgency. A lot more kids on bikes too.

xvedejas 8y ago

They are planning to do this with Market Street in San Francisco. I attended an informational meeting (open to public) about this and other nearby streetscape improvements. Many of the people present were afraid bikes will be running over pedestrians, the fear fueled in part by the recent proliferation of electric scooters. I don't agree that this is the right concern, but I just want to illustrate that the idea might not be popular with the general public.

Camillo 8y ago
Have there been any confirmed injuries from people being run over by scooters in San Francisco? I tried a quick search but came up empty.
- xvedejas 8y ago
  If I recall correctly, the only confirmed injury from the recent influx of scooter sharing was from someone tripping over a parked scooter. But the meeting I'm referring to happened about a year ago, and the fear was mostly geared towards private electric longboards and "hoverboards", I think.

InclinedPlane 8y ago

Have you ever ridden a bike on the sidewalk without any pedestrians to worry about? It's not a good experience. Bike lanes are fine.

conradev 8y ago

It’s not the majority, but Berlin has ~150km of bicycle paths on sidewalks: https://web.archive.org/web/20080922140453/http://www.stadtentwicklung.berlin.de/verkehr/radverkehrsanlagen/en/radwege.shtml https://web.archive.org/web/20080922140453/http://www.stadte... When I was there, I kept walking in the bike lane by accident and ended up upsetting some cyclists.

rorykoehler 8y ago
In Berlin I ride on the road

beamatronic 8y ago

I do have faith that all the necessary “revolutions” like this will ultimately get done by the millenial generation.

briandear 8y ago

Check out the way China does it— bike and scooter lanes completely separated from traffic.

Steltek 8y ago

It's been tried and it's really not that easy. - Cars will make turns that cross your protected bike path and with parking in the way, a bike's already minimal visible cross section is reduced even more. - Bikes need to make left turns which is difficult when there are parked cars in the way. - Pedestrians will happily walk everywhere in your bike lane (oblivious to your bell ringing due to headphones), regardless of whatever paint you delineate the two areas. In areas with these kinds of bike lanes, I generally ride in the street with the cars. It's safer and faster.

KozmoNau7 8y ago
>"Cars will make turns that cross your protected bike path and with parking in the way, a bike's already minimal visible cross section is reduced even more." Proper turning/bike lane design and prioritized space for cyclists takes good care of this. In lighted intersections, stagger the lights so bikes have priority. >" Bikes need to make left turns which is difficult when there are parked cars in the way." Make bikes do hook turns (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hook_turn https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hook_turn) instead of using the cars' left turn lanes. It's significantly safer and doesn't require bikes to cross traffic lanes. >"Pedestrians will happily walk everywhere in your bike lane (oblivious to your bell ringing due to headphones), regardless of whatever paint you delineate the two areas." Delineate with a curb instead of just a line, to make the separation clear.
- Steltek 8y ago
  > Proper turning/bike lane design and prioritized space for cyclists takes good care of this. In lighted intersections, stagger the lights so bikes have priority. At the one intersection I'm most familiar with, a separate bike light almost always results in the driver becoming confused and causing a near crash. I've learned to wait a few seconds to avoid being hit. > Make bikes do hook turns (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hook_turn https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hook_turn) instead of using the cars' left turn lanes. It's significantly safer and doesn't require bikes to cross traffic lanes. That takes signficantly longer, as you're guaranteed to sit through at least one signal phase. Again at my favoritist intersection ever, hook turns are what are marked but only newbie bikers use this technique. Everyone else just takes their chances doing something radical so they're no better off.

andymoe 8y ago

This is basically how it is in Japan. Just bigger sidewalks. Bike mostly welcome. Of course this forces them to slow down a bit.

mFixman 8y ago

The part you are missing, like most people who aren't used to exercise and see city planning in a car-centric way, is that a bicycle can go at a serious speed in a city. Bike lanes in sidewalks work in beaches because bikers tend to drive at a comfortable cruising speed. Daily commuters usually bike in the ~15-25mph range in a city (and a lot faster in suburbs and country roads); that speed is dangerous for pedestrians. You are also disregarding turns and intersections, where it's much more convenient to stop as little as possible. The solution to bike lanes is physically separated lanes that don't give lazy car drivers free parking space and don't penalize cyclists for traffic, but still allows them to move to the roads when there aren't many cars as in [1]. [1] https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/image_data/file/49647/S113_Salford_Liverpool_Street_trial_site_stop_line_approach_960x640.jpg https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/...

trillic 8y ago
Detroit is using this type of bike lane on all newly renovated roads. Most notably East Jefferson which was just finished.
- tacorama 8y ago
  I just moved from Detroit but I’m still super excited about the city planning that’s taking place there, in particular the Jefferson calming! Cass has also had protected bike lanes for a little while now and they’re really nice. Detroit is kind of unique in that they have super wide streets that don’t really need to be nearly as wide as they are for the amount of traffic they carry.

rorykoehler 8y ago

As a cyclist, while I see where you are coming from, I would prefer to be on the road. It's much quicker when you are a first class citizen. The solution the dutch have is far better. They have bike roads (not lanes). The way to retro fit this in the US would be to embed physical divider bollards in the road.