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>The hardest conversation I have to have with a founder is when they’ve spent their 1-2 million dollar angel round but haven’t found product market fit. As som

>The hardest conversation I have to have with a founder is when they’ve spent their 1-2 million dollar angel round but haven’t found product market fit. As someone who has bootstrapped a company that found a product market fit and is profitable, I can't even explain how foreign it is to think that people raise and exhaust millions of dollars without finding product market fit. I constantly have anxiety about all of the facets of running the business. I cringe even thinking about the pressure an entrepreneur must while being in this predicament. I couldn't handle it.

jacquesm 8y ago
> I can't even explain how foreign it is to think that people raise and exhaust millions of dollars without finding product market fit. Quite a few raise money without even having a product, forget about product market fit.
- ryandrake 8y ago
  This blows my mind. You’re basically betting money on an athlete before knowing what sport they’ll decide to play. It’s as if these people have run out of viable investments and are just guessing. That said, if anyone with $1M burning a hole in their pocket has no idea what to do with it, just reach out: I accept PayPal and Bitcoin. I offer you the same 0% return!
  - s73v3r_ 8y ago
    There are plenty of viable investments; they just usually don't offer ludicrous rates of return. Just normal, decent ones.
  - pbreit 8y ago
    Isn't it more like paying a drafted athlete? It's not like founders have no prior history to go on.
ModernMech 8y ago
> I can't even explain how foreign it is to think that people raise and exhaust millions of dollars without finding product market fit. This equates to about 18 months of operating time in SF. When you talk about it in terms of time instead of dollars, 18 months doesn't seem like long at all. Certainly not enough time to find product market fit in many cases if you start out with only a vague idea.
- BuuQu9hu 8y ago
  > 18 months... Certainly not enough time to find product market fit in many cases if you start out with only a vague idea. I don't understand how "only a vague idea" is able to raise millions of dollars in the first place. Can you elaborate or give an example?
  - extragood 8y ago
    It's almost entirely down to the pedigree of the people asking for money. And pedigree boils down to education and/or previous wins. It's been one of the most basic tenants at ycombinator from the early days: > In fact, we're so sure the founders are more important than the initial idea that we're going to try something new this funding cycle. We're going to let people apply with no idea at all. If you want, you can answer the question on the application form that asks what you're going to do with "We have no idea." If you seem really good we'll accept you anyway. http://www.paulgraham.com/notnot.html http://www.paulgraham.com/notnot.html I worked with a recent (at the time) Stanford grad who had applied and been selected for one of the early ycombinator cohorts. Paul didn't like his group's idea, and told them to walk around the block and come up with something better and then pitch it to him. The pervading philosophy for many investors is that the idea is less important than the team, at least in the initial investment.
    - BuuQu9hu 8y ago
      Yes, I'm familiar with the "funding people" philosophy. However, YC invests $120k, not millions. Where does the other $1.88+ million for "only a vague idea" come from?
mockingbirdy 8y ago
> I can't even explain how foreign it is to think that people raise and exhaust millions of dollars without finding product market fit. I agree. It feels strange. Whatever people say, it was pretty uncommon for most of the time in human history that some people with a vague idea were given some million dollars to build something. Most people had to argue a lot to get this kind of money. I think it's because money is cheap. Book money can be easily printed by banks and our currency is worth nothing and investors know that. If the price correction happens, the system could blow off and leave many people in poverty because all their wealth was based on debt. Investors are smart enough that they know that all those dollar bills are worth nothing and that the only currency for startups is attention and massive usage (talking about B2C here).
- CPLX 8y ago
  > it was pretty uncommon for most of the time in human history that some people with a vague idea were given some million dollars to build something I feel like that might not be true. Seems like anecdotally there's been a long history of people being funded for speculative adventures, going back centuries. The one that "discovered" the Americas being an archetypal example, but surely there were many more examples of patronage and underwriting of ideas, it's a core part of society.
  - eloff 8y ago
    That it happened is without doubt, that it happened as often or as easily as in Silicon Valley? Never even close in the history of the human race.
    - s73v3r_ 8y ago
      One has to wonder how expensive those expeditions were, comparatively speaking, to the average Angel or Series A.
  - mockingbirdy 8y ago
    > Most people had to argue a lot to get this kind of money. That guy who found America? He lobbied for nearly a decade to get the money. See [1] and [2]. People weren't that rich back then because wealth wasn't that exorbitant in the past. We only got this wealth due to the industrial revolution and the digital revolution. Today even a slightly above-average guy in Europe is richer than most kings in the past. [1]: https://www.history.com/news/10-things-you-may-not-know-about-christopher-columbus https://www.history.com/news/10-things-you-may-not-know-abou... [2]: https://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2011/1010/Christopher-Columbus-Five-things-you-thought-you-knew-about-the-explorer/MYTH-Queen-Isabella-of-Spain-sold-the-crown-jewels-to-pay-for-Columbus-s-voyage https://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2011/1010/Christopher-Columbus...
hinkley 8y ago
A lot of churn in the dotcom era (iOS is trying to correct dotcom to ‘sitcom’, how appropriate) involved people quoting that stupid Kevin Costner movie where the guy hearing voices plows under his corn to build a baseball field, and then he goes and harasses Darth Vader to find out why. “If you build it, they will come” is not exactly the most auspicious start. This was turned into the Underpants Gnomes by South Park, which seemingly slowed down but did not eliminate the practice. I wonder if Mike Judge is having more luck, but it’s probably too soon still to say.
- mercer 8y ago
  Is there any way I can convince you to slow down with the aphorisms and broad cross-cutting references? I find myself straining to make sense of your comments, even though I do feel they make some kind of sense. Obviously you're free to do as you wish. I just wanted to note that it's incredibly frustrating in a way that most comments here aren't, and it seems needlessly so. EDIT: I'm sorry, I realize this might be considered a personal attack. It's quite possible I'm just really tired. I just find it frustrating that I feel like I can't make sense from stuff that I feel does somehow make sense. It reminds me of the time I tried understanding Deleuze.
  - hinkley 8y ago
    No harm. I’m operating on too few myself today. In a word: magic thinking has been with us for a long time. It was old when I got into the industry. Various personalities have lampooned this bad behavior, or still are (eg, Mike Judge with “Silicon Valley”) which seems to slow our roll, but not really fix anything.
writepub 8y ago
Can you share your company with us? If you'd prefer it to remain private, would appreciate an email at info_AT_write.pub We're in early stages of our plan/journey. Our aim is to become profitable while bootstrapped. Mentorship is what we really crave. Cheers
icedchai 8y ago
It's more common than you think. It's probably the most common start up outcome... You build it, and nobody comes.

jacquesm 8y ago

> I can't even explain how foreign it is to think that people raise and exhaust millions of dollars without finding product market fit. Quite a few raise money without even having a product, forget about product market fit.

ryandrake 8y ago
This blows my mind. You’re basically betting money on an athlete before knowing what sport they’ll decide to play. It’s as if these people have run out of viable investments and are just guessing. That said, if anyone with $1M burning a hole in their pocket has no idea what to do with it, just reach out: I accept PayPal and Bitcoin. I offer you the same 0% return!
- s73v3r_ 8y ago
  There are plenty of viable investments; they just usually don't offer ludicrous rates of return. Just normal, decent ones.
- pbreit 8y ago
  Isn't it more like paying a drafted athlete? It's not like founders have no prior history to go on.

ModernMech 8y ago

> I can't even explain how foreign it is to think that people raise and exhaust millions of dollars without finding product market fit. This equates to about 18 months of operating time in SF. When you talk about it in terms of time instead of dollars, 18 months doesn't seem like long at all. Certainly not enough time to find product market fit in many cases if you start out with only a vague idea.

BuuQu9hu 8y ago
> 18 months... Certainly not enough time to find product market fit in many cases if you start out with only a vague idea. I don't understand how "only a vague idea" is able to raise millions of dollars in the first place. Can you elaborate or give an example?
- extragood 8y ago
  It's almost entirely down to the pedigree of the people asking for money. And pedigree boils down to education and/or previous wins. It's been one of the most basic tenants at ycombinator from the early days: > In fact, we're so sure the founders are more important than the initial idea that we're going to try something new this funding cycle. We're going to let people apply with no idea at all. If you want, you can answer the question on the application form that asks what you're going to do with "We have no idea." If you seem really good we'll accept you anyway. http://www.paulgraham.com/notnot.html http://www.paulgraham.com/notnot.html I worked with a recent (at the time) Stanford grad who had applied and been selected for one of the early ycombinator cohorts. Paul didn't like his group's idea, and told them to walk around the block and come up with something better and then pitch it to him. The pervading philosophy for many investors is that the idea is less important than the team, at least in the initial investment.
  - BuuQu9hu 8y ago
    Yes, I'm familiar with the "funding people" philosophy. However, YC invests $120k, not millions. Where does the other $1.88+ million for "only a vague idea" come from?

mockingbirdy 8y ago

> I can't even explain how foreign it is to think that people raise and exhaust millions of dollars without finding product market fit. I agree. It feels strange. Whatever people say, it was pretty uncommon for most of the time in human history that some people with a vague idea were given some million dollars to build something. Most people had to argue a lot to get this kind of money. I think it's because money is cheap. Book money can be easily printed by banks and our currency is worth nothing and investors know that. If the price correction happens, the system could blow off and leave many people in poverty because all their wealth was based on debt. Investors are smart enough that they know that all those dollar bills are worth nothing and that the only currency for startups is attention and massive usage (talking about B2C here).

CPLX 8y ago
> it was pretty uncommon for most of the time in human history that some people with a vague idea were given some million dollars to build something I feel like that might not be true. Seems like anecdotally there's been a long history of people being funded for speculative adventures, going back centuries. The one that "discovered" the Americas being an archetypal example, but surely there were many more examples of patronage and underwriting of ideas, it's a core part of society.
- eloff 8y ago
  That it happened is without doubt, that it happened as often or as easily as in Silicon Valley? Never even close in the history of the human race.
  - s73v3r_ 8y ago
    One has to wonder how expensive those expeditions were, comparatively speaking, to the average Angel or Series A.
- mockingbirdy 8y ago
  > Most people had to argue a lot to get this kind of money. That guy who found America? He lobbied for nearly a decade to get the money. See [1] and [2]. People weren't that rich back then because wealth wasn't that exorbitant in the past. We only got this wealth due to the industrial revolution and the digital revolution. Today even a slightly above-average guy in Europe is richer than most kings in the past. [1]: https://www.history.com/news/10-things-you-may-not-know-about-christopher-columbus https://www.history.com/news/10-things-you-may-not-know-abou... [2]: https://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2011/1010/Christopher-Columbus-Five-things-you-thought-you-knew-about-the-explorer/MYTH-Queen-Isabella-of-Spain-sold-the-crown-jewels-to-pay-for-Columbus-s-voyage https://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2011/1010/Christopher-Columbus...

hinkley 8y ago

A lot of churn in the dotcom era (iOS is trying to correct dotcom to ‘sitcom’, how appropriate) involved people quoting that stupid Kevin Costner movie where the guy hearing voices plows under his corn to build a baseball field, and then he goes and harasses Darth Vader to find out why. “If you build it, they will come” is not exactly the most auspicious start. This was turned into the Underpants Gnomes by South Park, which seemingly slowed down but did not eliminate the practice. I wonder if Mike Judge is having more luck, but it’s probably too soon still to say.

mercer 8y ago
Is there any way I can convince you to slow down with the aphorisms and broad cross-cutting references? I find myself straining to make sense of your comments, even though I do feel they make some kind of sense. Obviously you're free to do as you wish. I just wanted to note that it's incredibly frustrating in a way that most comments here aren't, and it seems needlessly so. EDIT: I'm sorry, I realize this might be considered a personal attack. It's quite possible I'm just really tired. I just find it frustrating that I feel like I can't make sense from stuff that I feel does somehow make sense. It reminds me of the time I tried understanding Deleuze.
- hinkley 8y ago
  No harm. I’m operating on too few myself today. In a word: magic thinking has been with us for a long time. It was old when I got into the industry. Various personalities have lampooned this bad behavior, or still are (eg, Mike Judge with “Silicon Valley”) which seems to slow our roll, but not really fix anything.

writepub 8y ago

Can you share your company with us? If you'd prefer it to remain private, would appreciate an email at info_AT_write.pub We're in early stages of our plan/journey. Our aim is to become profitable while bootstrapped. Mentorship is what we really crave. Cheers

icedchai 8y ago

It's more common than you think. It's probably the most common start up outcome... You build it, and nobody comes.