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I live in Toronto. The problem with companies like Alphabet / Google / Sidewalk Labs building mini-cities is twofold. First, they lack the internal focus so t

I live in Toronto. The problem with companies like Alphabet / Google / Sidewalk Labs building mini-cities is twofold. First, they lack the internal focus so they flake or sacrifice on things that no sane singular focussed entity would. For example Craig Nevill-Manning, head of Sidewalk Labs flaked on his talk at The Walrus' 15th year anniversary party titled The Walrus Talks The Future. This was a paid event, full of Canadian cultural elites, specifically aimed at talking about the future. "When someone shows you who they are believe them." If they cared about what we thought they would actually engage the people here that care. Second, they try to leverage existing internal competencies. Completely understandable, but it warps the outcome to solution mixes that aren't necessarily optimal for the people actually living in the city. When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. I don't want to live in a city where a techno-hammer international corporation has hammered its copentenczies here and there. I want to live in a human city where little decisions are made by little people. I want to live in a city where flowers hang from windows and where theres little bike paths and a nice mix of trees. Cobblestone streets. Community gardens and little shops and restaurants. Some Chinese, some French, some Italian. I'm not saying Google is necessary going to fuck up that area of Toronto. It might be great. But it's such a large project that I worry that it risks being another CityPlace. A soulless pocket mark on a diverse and increasingly interesting city.

brailsafe 8y ago
So... you don't want it to become Vancouver in other words.
- Lenad 8y ago
  @brailsafe, would you mind to explain a bit more why Vancouver is like this?
  - brailsafe 8y ago
    I was being a bit facetious here, but there is some truth to it. Though I can't pinpoint exactly why, Vancouver seems to have have developed into a very sanitized and homogeneous place. I don't know whether it's the cost of living or how many identical skyscrapers have been copy/pasted by the same developer, or how many swaths of older buildings and cultural landmarks have been bought up (or attempted to be bought up in the case of the Rio Theatre) and demolished to make way for very similar looking high rises. Many of these things seem to be coming together to subtract from any sense of character that the city might have had. My sense is that a sense of place is much stronger in various subcultures like skateboarding, but I think there is a stronger tendency for people to meet through an activity and then part ways only to schedule a new meeting a month later. It's a city that is simultaneously one of the most ethnically diverse places around, and culturally bland/white/rich/tasteless/pretentious/nofun. I do like this place, but I tend to think that the things I like are despite the city itself, and are often found in close proximity to the city rather than in it.
52-6F-62 8y ago
I hope you're right. But I do kind of trust Waterfront Toronto. Them and the city's parks have been doing a great job. For instance, the revitalization of the area beneath the Gardner expressway. The city seems keen to make sure they're heard throughout this project as well. I hope that continues.
jacquesm 8y ago
The problem is that everybody wants to live in a different city. So you'll end up with a compromise, or something like Brasilia if you let the planners get away with it. Nice cities grow organically, they're not planned at all, and it takes a long time for them to get that organic feel.
- cma 8y ago
  Most maybe grow that way, but it seems like most are preserved through intervention. Architectural review boards with emphasis on preserving historical features, etc.
- coryrc 8y ago
  Barcelona's new city (planned development after the walls came down) is far more livable than what, say, Seattle has become.
  - jacquesm 8y ago
    Barcelona is a happy exception to the rule, and also the planning was done long enough ago that in the meantime organic elements have taken root again. Also, don't underestimate Gaudi's ability to design the organic look right into a brand new building. Great story here by the way: https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2016/apr/01/story-cities-13-eixample-barcelona-ildefons-cerda-planner-urbanisation https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2016/apr/01/story-cities-... I absolutely love Barcelona, it is one of the nicest places in the world in part due to the work done to give it its character and in part because of the unique setting it is in.
  - jdonaldson 8y ago
    Barcelona solved its problems by knocking down walls. Seattle is walled in by water - it's a different sort of problem.
- aalleavitch 8y ago
  I think you can find a medium: designing a city around the idea of “seeding” organic growth, defining the broad spaces to be filled in by organic development, and then responding to that development to shape the city’s growth constructively. Basically, more gardening than city planning.
cam3ham 8y ago
As someone who lives in CityPlace, it's actually a pretty awesome area to live for young professionals. Right smack downtown, close to pretty much everything - work/offices, parks, bars/restaurants, delivery (same day Amazon Prime, all downtown restaurants on Uber Eats), transit, walking distance to every major sports arena, etc. Not to mention massive growth in the area has lead to a lot of attention and investment from the city... seems to only be getting better every year. No idea where you got the idea that it was "soulless"? Perhaps because it is a relatively new development/area... there is massive construction going up everywhere in the area including 2 new schools and community center right in the middle of canoe landing park: http://urbantoronto.ca/news/2017/09/cityplace-finally-getting-schools-and-community-centre http://urbantoronto.ca/news/2017/09/cityplace-finally-gettin...
- astrodust 8y ago
  As someone who lives near CityPlace I've got to say that area is the most culturally sterile in the whole downtown core. That block is called the "vertical suburbs" for a reason. Everything's convenient...if your tastes are bland. Everything's within reach...if you go outside your neighbourhood for some actual culture or variety. It's a great place to live if you want to keep to yourself, and occasionally become involved in the local scene. It's not immersive like many vibrant neighbourhoods are, where you're an intrinsic part of the community. Planned cities always fail. Those that are allowed to grow organically, evolving to fit the community's needs if and when demand builds, work out much better in the long run. The difference between an area like, for example, Trinity Bellwoods and CityPlace is a lot more than the few hundred meters of distance. It's culturally night and day.
  - rayiner 8y ago
    What a load of hand-waving. "Planned cities always fail?" You mean like Chicago? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burnham_Plan_of_Chicago https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burnham_Plan_of_Chicago
    - omosubi 8y ago
      Chicago existed long before the burnham plan, and even then only parts of it were implemented. Large parts of it were a success, but I would not consider these equivalent city planning efforts
perl4ever 8y ago
It's a bit awkward to attack Google for presumptively removing self-determination for "little people" after you start by criticizing a Googler for dissing "cultural elites". How dare they think they know what's best for you people! Only the designated elites know what's best for you people! I'm not a particular fan of Google, I'm just saying if I lived in Toronto, my response would be shrug. You lived through Rob Ford, right? Was he a member of the "cultural elite"?
- 3pt14159 8y ago
  The reality is that there are people that spend all day researching things like urban planning and how to foster a more culturally diverse city. They tend to be more learned and more engaged. It's not that they are the only people that matter, and they're far from a tiny elite, but they tend to make cities better for everyone. I'm not in that group of people. I don't spend my time researching elevated bike lanes vs physically separated ones. My business partner does, and I like to support him, but I know my areas of interest: Cybersecurity and data science. To me cultural elites are little people. They're well read, but they don't universally have power or money. Just an eye to what would make a better city and some time to try to make things better in their own way.
  - perl4ever 8y ago
    I'm not sure I follow. I'm not sure (obviously) what "cultural elites" are to you, but I certainly wouldn't have thought that urban planners were an example.
threatofrain 8y ago
Is the city you're talking about producible from the sum of little decisions by little people? Having seen some planned cities, I'm quite dubious that unstructured market access can lead to the same levels of city infastructural efficacy and pedestrian ergonomics, versus the planned cities of the US. I have a feeling that centralization alone, whether performed by a (problematic) monopolist Irvine company, or done by a town council, makes a huge difference in quality. The charming picture-perfect towns with small shops and red brick churches with abundant leisurely strolling are likely very carefully constructed and enforced.

brailsafe 8y ago

So... you don't want it to become Vancouver in other words.

Lenad 8y ago
@brailsafe, would you mind to explain a bit more why Vancouver is like this?
- brailsafe 8y ago
  I was being a bit facetious here, but there is some truth to it. Though I can't pinpoint exactly why, Vancouver seems to have have developed into a very sanitized and homogeneous place. I don't know whether it's the cost of living or how many identical skyscrapers have been copy/pasted by the same developer, or how many swaths of older buildings and cultural landmarks have been bought up (or attempted to be bought up in the case of the Rio Theatre) and demolished to make way for very similar looking high rises. Many of these things seem to be coming together to subtract from any sense of character that the city might have had. My sense is that a sense of place is much stronger in various subcultures like skateboarding, but I think there is a stronger tendency for people to meet through an activity and then part ways only to schedule a new meeting a month later. It's a city that is simultaneously one of the most ethnically diverse places around, and culturally bland/white/rich/tasteless/pretentious/nofun. I do like this place, but I tend to think that the things I like are despite the city itself, and are often found in close proximity to the city rather than in it.

52-6F-62 8y ago

I hope you're right. But I do kind of trust Waterfront Toronto. Them and the city's parks have been doing a great job. For instance, the revitalization of the area beneath the Gardner expressway. The city seems keen to make sure they're heard throughout this project as well. I hope that continues.

jacquesm 8y ago

The problem is that everybody wants to live in a different city. So you'll end up with a compromise, or something like Brasilia if you let the planners get away with it. Nice cities grow organically, they're not planned at all, and it takes a long time for them to get that organic feel.

cma 8y ago
Most maybe grow that way, but it seems like most are preserved through intervention. Architectural review boards with emphasis on preserving historical features, etc.
coryrc 8y ago
Barcelona's new city (planned development after the walls came down) is far more livable than what, say, Seattle has become.
- jacquesm 8y ago
  Barcelona is a happy exception to the rule, and also the planning was done long enough ago that in the meantime organic elements have taken root again. Also, don't underestimate Gaudi's ability to design the organic look right into a brand new building. Great story here by the way: https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2016/apr/01/story-cities-13-eixample-barcelona-ildefons-cerda-planner-urbanisation https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2016/apr/01/story-cities-... I absolutely love Barcelona, it is one of the nicest places in the world in part due to the work done to give it its character and in part because of the unique setting it is in.
- jdonaldson 8y ago
  Barcelona solved its problems by knocking down walls. Seattle is walled in by water - it's a different sort of problem.
aalleavitch 8y ago
I think you can find a medium: designing a city around the idea of “seeding” organic growth, defining the broad spaces to be filled in by organic development, and then responding to that development to shape the city’s growth constructively. Basically, more gardening than city planning.

cam3ham 8y ago

As someone who lives in CityPlace, it's actually a pretty awesome area to live for young professionals. Right smack downtown, close to pretty much everything - work/offices, parks, bars/restaurants, delivery (same day Amazon Prime, all downtown restaurants on Uber Eats), transit, walking distance to every major sports arena, etc. Not to mention massive growth in the area has lead to a lot of attention and investment from the city... seems to only be getting better every year. No idea where you got the idea that it was "soulless"? Perhaps because it is a relatively new development/area... there is massive construction going up everywhere in the area including 2 new schools and community center right in the middle of canoe landing park: http://urbantoronto.ca/news/2017/09/cityplace-finally-getting-schools-and-community-centre http://urbantoronto.ca/news/2017/09/cityplace-finally-gettin...

astrodust 8y ago
As someone who lives near CityPlace I've got to say that area is the most culturally sterile in the whole downtown core. That block is called the "vertical suburbs" for a reason. Everything's convenient...if your tastes are bland. Everything's within reach...if you go outside your neighbourhood for some actual culture or variety. It's a great place to live if you want to keep to yourself, and occasionally become involved in the local scene. It's not immersive like many vibrant neighbourhoods are, where you're an intrinsic part of the community. Planned cities always fail. Those that are allowed to grow organically, evolving to fit the community's needs if and when demand builds, work out much better in the long run. The difference between an area like, for example, Trinity Bellwoods and CityPlace is a lot more than the few hundred meters of distance. It's culturally night and day.
- rayiner 8y ago
  What a load of hand-waving. "Planned cities always fail?" You mean like Chicago? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burnham_Plan_of_Chicago https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burnham_Plan_of_Chicago
  - omosubi 8y ago
    Chicago existed long before the burnham plan, and even then only parts of it were implemented. Large parts of it were a success, but I would not consider these equivalent city planning efforts

perl4ever 8y ago

It's a bit awkward to attack Google for presumptively removing self-determination for "little people" after you start by criticizing a Googler for dissing "cultural elites". How dare they think they know what's best for you people! Only the designated elites know what's best for you people! I'm not a particular fan of Google, I'm just saying if I lived in Toronto, my response would be shrug. You lived through Rob Ford, right? Was he a member of the "cultural elite"?

3pt14159 8y ago
The reality is that there are people that spend all day researching things like urban planning and how to foster a more culturally diverse city. They tend to be more learned and more engaged. It's not that they are the only people that matter, and they're far from a tiny elite, but they tend to make cities better for everyone. I'm not in that group of people. I don't spend my time researching elevated bike lanes vs physically separated ones. My business partner does, and I like to support him, but I know my areas of interest: Cybersecurity and data science. To me cultural elites are little people. They're well read, but they don't universally have power or money. Just an eye to what would make a better city and some time to try to make things better in their own way.
- perl4ever 8y ago
  I'm not sure I follow. I'm not sure (obviously) what "cultural elites" are to you, but I certainly wouldn't have thought that urban planners were an example.

threatofrain 8y ago

Is the city you're talking about producible from the sum of little decisions by little people? Having seen some planned cities, I'm quite dubious that unstructured market access can lead to the same levels of city infastructural efficacy and pedestrian ergonomics, versus the planned cities of the US. I have a feeling that centralization alone, whether performed by a (problematic) monopolist Irvine company, or done by a town council, makes a huge difference in quality. The charming picture-perfect towns with small shops and red brick churches with abundant leisurely strolling are likely very carefully constructed and enforced.