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I think you were trying to post to the article about these "contest" sites being possibly illegal. You know, this is a case where I think that the laws, if bei

I think you were trying to post to the article about these "contest" sites being possibly illegal. You know, this is a case where I think that the laws, if being broken, should be broken. I think that these sites are more like "submitting a request for comps and receiving them" more than a "contest." Now if people are running these "contests" and not fulfilling their end of the bargain, then they are bastards and should be caned. But for people in developing countries with great design skills (or people in developed countries that are looking for experience) these "contests" provide a much greater potential for income that they normally wouldn't get. I think that a lot of this whining about the legality and "morality" of these sites and contests by the establishment (in this case the design firms and professional designers) is simply a case of them being afraid of lower cost alternatives (that might be better than them!). This may be another case of p2p and digital music vs. the recording industry and the RIAA. There will be some losers (napster) but the cat is already out of the bag.

sc 18y ago
I don't think he was trying to post a link to that specific article. The site at large is relevant with its argument: "spec work devalues the potential of design and ultimately does a disservice to the client".
- chaostheory 18y ago
  the problem with the site (no-spec.com), aside from the legal argument, is that its arguments for "spec work devalues the potential of design" are pretty weak. It runs with the main assumption that only talentless, "less-than-great" designers would go for this... which judging from the 99designs submissions - isn't true
  - menloparkbum 18y ago
    Most of the submissions are awful.
    - chaostheory 18y ago
      well most companies and people can't afford to hire a good firm, and it's hell of a lot better than what most people can do. It's meeting a market need for good enough design (to me it's great) for the little cash most seed startups and people have. I get the impression that the designers against this feel that the design firms are going to go away... I don't feel that they will since they serve a different market
    - jrockway 18y ago
      But some of the submissions are good. And you only need one logo.
deleted 18y ago
[deleted]
joshwa 18y ago
What's the difference between this site and saying to a hacker: "Make a web application to my specs, please. Do it a few different ways so I have options. If I don't like it, I won't use it, but I won't pay for it, either." Some industries do follow this model (e.g. architecture, design, custom enterprise SW), but the business case for proposals/POCs/loss-leaders can only be justified when: (# of proposals generated) x (cost of work to produce proposals) < (value of awarded contracts) - (cost to fulfill contracts) However, with contest sites/spec work, that equation only makes sense if you value your time (costs) at close to zero, since the ratio of proposals generated to awarded contracts is so lopsided.
- chaostheory 18y ago
  as I've already mentioned in another post, this isn't new for programmers; It's been around for years. (Correct me if I'm wrong but Google map's origins can be traced to one) Here are a few examples: http://code.google.com/android/adc.html http://code.google.com/android/adc.html http://www.netflixprize.com/ http://www.netflixprize.com/ We're still fine, and I'm not mad about it either. It's not like companies like Google and Netflix are forcing people to code at gun point. There is choice involved. If contests cause my work situation to change for the worse, then I adapt (or get lazy and become obsolete...)
  - joshwa 18y ago
    Except that entries to those contests have value that isn't tied directly to the contest-giver-- android apps can be resold independently, and netflixprize entrants are developing machine learning algorithms that have tremendous value (and it's open-source, IIRC, which is a whole different kettle of fish). In a logo design competition, the elements cannot (easily) be resold or repurposed, since they are specific to the specs of a particular client. Also, winning one the Android or Netfliz prizes confers lots of value in terms of publicity, which can't be said of 10,000 small logo competitions. One other note: Rentacoder, for instance, has specific rules prohibiting posting design comps or source code to prevent uncompensated work.
    - 18y ago
cousin_it 18y ago
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dollar_auction http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dollar_auction This is why people don't like speculative work.

sc 18y ago

I don't think he was trying to post a link to that specific article. The site at large is relevant with its argument: "spec work devalues the potential of design and ultimately does a disservice to the client".

chaostheory 18y ago
the problem with the site (no-spec.com), aside from the legal argument, is that its arguments for "spec work devalues the potential of design" are pretty weak. It runs with the main assumption that only talentless, "less-than-great" designers would go for this... which judging from the 99designs submissions - isn't true
- menloparkbum 18y ago
  Most of the submissions are awful.
  - chaostheory 18y ago
    well most companies and people can't afford to hire a good firm, and it's hell of a lot better than what most people can do. It's meeting a market need for good enough design (to me it's great) for the little cash most seed startups and people have. I get the impression that the designers against this feel that the design firms are going to go away... I don't feel that they will since they serve a different market
  - jrockway 18y ago
    But some of the submissions are good. And you only need one logo.

deleted 18y ago

[deleted]

joshwa 18y ago

What's the difference between this site and saying to a hacker: "Make a web application to my specs, please. Do it a few different ways so I have options. If I don't like it, I won't use it, but I won't pay for it, either." Some industries do follow this model (e.g. architecture, design, custom enterprise SW), but the business case for proposals/POCs/loss-leaders can only be justified when: (# of proposals generated) x (cost of work to produce proposals) < (value of awarded contracts) - (cost to fulfill contracts) However, with contest sites/spec work, that equation only makes sense if you value your time (costs) at close to zero, since the ratio of proposals generated to awarded contracts is so lopsided.

chaostheory 18y ago
as I've already mentioned in another post, this isn't new for programmers; It's been around for years. (Correct me if I'm wrong but Google map's origins can be traced to one) Here are a few examples: http://code.google.com/android/adc.html http://code.google.com/android/adc.html http://www.netflixprize.com/ http://www.netflixprize.com/ We're still fine, and I'm not mad about it either. It's not like companies like Google and Netflix are forcing people to code at gun point. There is choice involved. If contests cause my work situation to change for the worse, then I adapt (or get lazy and become obsolete...)
- joshwa 18y ago
  Except that entries to those contests have value that isn't tied directly to the contest-giver-- android apps can be resold independently, and netflixprize entrants are developing machine learning algorithms that have tremendous value (and it's open-source, IIRC, which is a whole different kettle of fish). In a logo design competition, the elements cannot (easily) be resold or repurposed, since they are specific to the specs of a particular client. Also, winning one the Android or Netfliz prizes confers lots of value in terms of publicity, which can't be said of 10,000 small logo competitions. One other note: Rentacoder, for instance, has specific rules prohibiting posting design comps or source code to prevent uncompensated work.
  - 18y ago

cousin_it 18y ago

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dollar_auction http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dollar_auction This is why people don't like speculative work.