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I've never heard of this legal definition of "professional" that you put forward. Where is this in state or federal law? In law school, we were taught that a p

I've never heard of this legal definition of "professional" that you put forward. Where is this in state or federal law? In law school, we were taught that a professional has obligations that go beyond his or her own self interest. Unlike a real estate developer or a widget manufacturer, an attorney has an obligation to do what's right for the client even if that causes the attorney to lose money or imposes a competitive advantage. Attorneys, for example, can't engage in the kinds of advertising speech that would be entirely lawful if done by a car dealership or furniture store. This traditional definition is hundreds of years older than the bar exam or ABA code of ethics, and older than formal graduate law school (a 20th Century American invention). All of that came later, after lawyers understood themselves differently. I would encourage people who write code -- software engineers, developers, coders, hackers, however one chooses to describe this work -- to think of themselves as professionals with obligations that go beyond their own self interest.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
jfim 8y ago
> I've never heard of this legal definition of "professional" that you put forward. Where is this in state or federal law? Professional, as in professional engineer. Think civil engineers, for example, who need to be registered with the board of engineers in order to provide engineering services (eg. approving plans for construction, supervising construction). Other countries also have specific legal statutes that regulate the title of engineer, such as Canada.
madengr 8y ago
“Attorneys, for example, can't engage in the kinds of advertising speech that would be entirely lawful if done by a car dealership or furniture store.” Why does Saul Goodman come to mind.
fma 8y ago
I would imagine OP is referring to "Professional Engineer". https://www.nspe.org/resources/licensure/what-pe https://www.nspe.org/resources/licensure/what-pe Every single design, bridge, etc is certified by a Professional Engineer. Your ass is on the line. I don't mean just being fired from your job - but jail time. Per the website: "A century ago, anyone could work as an engineer without proof of competency. In order to protect the public health, safety, and welfare, the first engineering licensure law was enacted in 1907 in Wyoming. Now every state regulates the practice of engineering to ensure public safety by granting only Professional Engineers (PEs) the authority to sign and seal engineering plans and offer their services to the public. " I suspect, and hope, software used critically have the same. Yes it's more bureaucracy and overhead...but being in software, I know any joe schmoe can walk on and develop code without oversight. I'm not saying if you're making the next twitter, that you need a PE. Or that every developer needs to have a PE license - but like other industries there is one PE per X amount of non-PE engineers. Due to the Threac-25 incident (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Therac-25 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Therac-25) there are standards for medical software (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEC_62304 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEC_62304). I'm not in medical so I don't know how widely adopted, or how strict it is adhered to. But it might be IEC 62304 needs to be branched out.
- ghaff 8y ago
  PEs exist for many branches of engineering. Including software. But the PE for software engineers is apparently being discontinued due to lack of interest.
  - pitaa 8y ago
    Yes, NCEES (the body that administers the Engineering licensing exams nationwide in the US) is discontinuing their Software Engineering exam next year because only ~80 people have taken it since it was created in 2013. I think the biggest problem they had was that despite having the exam, not many states actually issue Professional Engineer licenses in the Software Engineering discipline. Because of this, I don't see why anyone (in those states) would bother taking the exam if they can't actually get a license and use the title "Professional Engineer".
    - ghaff 8y ago
      I forgot licenses were by state. It's probably also the case that software engineers don't normally have to "sign off" on things for regulators in a formal way as is the case in other areas of engineering. So, other than having a title to stick on your business card, taking the PE exam doesn't buy you a whole lot whereas it's virtually required for other engineering branches.
- bgribble 8y ago
  In the US at least, the regulation of software in medical devices regulates the process by which the software is developed and tested. The qualifications of the people developing the code are somewhere down in the process-stack; there are no specific requirements [1]. In general, to follow "Current Good Manufacturing Practices" (a term of art in the FDA design controls regulation), qualifications for the people on the team have to be documented and a paper trail kept up-to-date, to be able to answer questions of the nature "was person <X> qualified to be working in this role? How do you know?" with objective evidence. It's up to the judgment of the engineering management of the project what they state the requirements of the role to be. If you say that it takes a high-school diploma or better to be able to develop life-safety-critical medical device software, you may pass a process audit since you document and track that requirement, but if there is an "adverse incident" I would think whoever signed off on that decision might be exposed to liability. [1] My specific knowledge about this is ~5 years out of date so this may have changed, but I doubt it
amyjess 8y ago
> Attorneys, for example, can't engage in the kinds of advertising speech that would be entirely lawful if done by a car dealership or furniture store. Are you sure about that? Because I've seen some really sleazy advertising by lawyers. Personal injury lawyers in general, but Jim Adler, the Texas Hammer especially comes to mind.
- mark212 8y ago
  Just as a quick example, the Florida Bar had a regulation that an attorney’s website could feature a picture of the lawyer, but the background was required to be either a single or gradient color or a generic courthouse.
Retric 8y ago
https://thelawdictionary.org/professional/ https://thelawdictionary.org/professional/ 1. A person, who is a member of a professional body due to the education qualification and follows the prescribed moeal and prefessional code of conduct.
- ensignavenger 8y ago
  2. A person who has mastered a high level of expertise in a subject, notion on field.
  - Retric 8y ago
    Completely different definition. Dawn can refer to both a time of day and dish soap, but they are not interchangeable definitions. > PROFESSIONAL MISCONDUCT 'Behavior different from what is prescribed in the moral, ethical and professional code of conduct' For example only uses definition 1.
    - ensignavenger 8y ago
      But when an individual says that they are a "professional", they could easily be using either definition, and still be using the word correctly. The OP said "Software engineers don't understand they're not professionals..." as if only the first definition was correct.
cmurf 8y ago
There's an incentive for lawyers, doctors, and accountants. You get a license to work from a board of peers, there's peer review, you can lose the confidence of that board and have the license to work revoked. I don't know the histories of those professions, and what's in common other than "obligations that go beyond self-interest". But I think lawyers are substantially different from other professions, even setting aside the state bar: they are officers of the court. They're an integral part of the legal system and they have a superseding duty to that system's function, not only to a client. So how would software developers/programmers/etc create something equivalent to that? Seems to me some critical mass of that industry would need to lobby state and/or federal government for the creation of a board who then produces a standard and certifies members conform to the standard under penalty that if they do not police their own members that the state can revoke the franchise/monopoly on that certification.
jessaustin 8y ago
GP didn't say that law is not a profession, but rather that computer programming is not a profession. This is obviously the case, since there are neither educational requirements nor state-approved certifications for this work. There are ethical expectations, only because all humans have ethical expectations. IANAL but one could certainly imagine 1A challenges to any attempt to enlist the state in the enforcement of a cartel like that of the lawyers or the physicians. In that sense it's no more likely that programming would ever become a profession than e.g. that writing would become a profession.
martythemaniak 8y ago
Well, "practicing medicine without a license" is a crime. I mean, you can call yourself a "healer" or something and claim to help people in some general, non-specific way, but you can't prescribe meds, cut people up, etc etc. So if you're a doctor you're given exclusive right to perform the economic activity of doctoring. In return you have a steep set of obligations, which include being truthful, ethical, not refusing service, etc. What you said is a part of these "obligations", which definitely put you at an economic disadvantage, but that's ok, because you have exclusive rights to that activity. A doctor's obligations do impose costs on them, but not compared to other doctors. The critical bit I'm trying get at is enforceability. If a doctor acts unethically, they can be challenged in front of their board by a patient and if they lose their license they can never practice medicine again. Having your livelihood at stake is a great incentive to act properly. A software engineer such as myself, OTOH, has no little incentive beyond my own personal ethics. In many cases, being ethical will place you at an economic disadvantage compared to other software engineers. Actually, the whole notion of "ethics" is hand-wavy and ill-defined, because there's no professional organization. Anyway, we can wish for good things and that'll party work and it's better than being cynical, but it'll only get you so far.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

jfim 8y ago

> I've never heard of this legal definition of "professional" that you put forward. Where is this in state or federal law? Professional, as in professional engineer. Think civil engineers, for example, who need to be registered with the board of engineers in order to provide engineering services (eg. approving plans for construction, supervising construction). Other countries also have specific legal statutes that regulate the title of engineer, such as Canada.

madengr 8y ago

“Attorneys, for example, can't engage in the kinds of advertising speech that would be entirely lawful if done by a car dealership or furniture store.” Why does Saul Goodman come to mind.

fma 8y ago

I would imagine OP is referring to "Professional Engineer". https://www.nspe.org/resources/licensure/what-pe https://www.nspe.org/resources/licensure/what-pe Every single design, bridge, etc is certified by a Professional Engineer. Your ass is on the line. I don't mean just being fired from your job - but jail time. Per the website: "A century ago, anyone could work as an engineer without proof of competency. In order to protect the public health, safety, and welfare, the first engineering licensure law was enacted in 1907 in Wyoming. Now every state regulates the practice of engineering to ensure public safety by granting only Professional Engineers (PEs) the authority to sign and seal engineering plans and offer their services to the public. " I suspect, and hope, software used critically have the same. Yes it's more bureaucracy and overhead...but being in software, I know any joe schmoe can walk on and develop code without oversight. I'm not saying if you're making the next twitter, that you need a PE. Or that every developer needs to have a PE license - but like other industries there is one PE per X amount of non-PE engineers. Due to the Threac-25 incident (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Therac-25 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Therac-25) there are standards for medical software (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEC_62304 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEC_62304). I'm not in medical so I don't know how widely adopted, or how strict it is adhered to. But it might be IEC 62304 needs to be branched out.

ghaff 8y ago
PEs exist for many branches of engineering. Including software. But the PE for software engineers is apparently being discontinued due to lack of interest.
- pitaa 8y ago
  Yes, NCEES (the body that administers the Engineering licensing exams nationwide in the US) is discontinuing their Software Engineering exam next year because only ~80 people have taken it since it was created in 2013. I think the biggest problem they had was that despite having the exam, not many states actually issue Professional Engineer licenses in the Software Engineering discipline. Because of this, I don't see why anyone (in those states) would bother taking the exam if they can't actually get a license and use the title "Professional Engineer".
  - ghaff 8y ago
    I forgot licenses were by state. It's probably also the case that software engineers don't normally have to "sign off" on things for regulators in a formal way as is the case in other areas of engineering. So, other than having a title to stick on your business card, taking the PE exam doesn't buy you a whole lot whereas it's virtually required for other engineering branches.
bgribble 8y ago
In the US at least, the regulation of software in medical devices regulates the process by which the software is developed and tested. The qualifications of the people developing the code are somewhere down in the process-stack; there are no specific requirements [1]. In general, to follow "Current Good Manufacturing Practices" (a term of art in the FDA design controls regulation), qualifications for the people on the team have to be documented and a paper trail kept up-to-date, to be able to answer questions of the nature "was person <X> qualified to be working in this role? How do you know?" with objective evidence. It's up to the judgment of the engineering management of the project what they state the requirements of the role to be. If you say that it takes a high-school diploma or better to be able to develop life-safety-critical medical device software, you may pass a process audit since you document and track that requirement, but if there is an "adverse incident" I would think whoever signed off on that decision might be exposed to liability. [1] My specific knowledge about this is ~5 years out of date so this may have changed, but I doubt it

amyjess 8y ago

> Attorneys, for example, can't engage in the kinds of advertising speech that would be entirely lawful if done by a car dealership or furniture store. Are you sure about that? Because I've seen some really sleazy advertising by lawyers. Personal injury lawyers in general, but Jim Adler, the Texas Hammer especially comes to mind.

mark212 8y ago
Just as a quick example, the Florida Bar had a regulation that an attorney’s website could feature a picture of the lawyer, but the background was required to be either a single or gradient color or a generic courthouse.

Retric 8y ago

https://thelawdictionary.org/professional/ https://thelawdictionary.org/professional/ 1. A person, who is a member of a professional body due to the education qualification and follows the prescribed moeal and prefessional code of conduct.

ensignavenger 8y ago
2. A person who has mastered a high level of expertise in a subject, notion on field.
- Retric 8y ago
  Completely different definition. Dawn can refer to both a time of day and dish soap, but they are not interchangeable definitions. > PROFESSIONAL MISCONDUCT 'Behavior different from what is prescribed in the moral, ethical and professional code of conduct' For example only uses definition 1.
  - ensignavenger 8y ago
    But when an individual says that they are a "professional", they could easily be using either definition, and still be using the word correctly. The OP said "Software engineers don't understand they're not professionals..." as if only the first definition was correct.

cmurf 8y ago

There's an incentive for lawyers, doctors, and accountants. You get a license to work from a board of peers, there's peer review, you can lose the confidence of that board and have the license to work revoked. I don't know the histories of those professions, and what's in common other than "obligations that go beyond self-interest". But I think lawyers are substantially different from other professions, even setting aside the state bar: they are officers of the court. They're an integral part of the legal system and they have a superseding duty to that system's function, not only to a client. So how would software developers/programmers/etc create something equivalent to that? Seems to me some critical mass of that industry would need to lobby state and/or federal government for the creation of a board who then produces a standard and certifies members conform to the standard under penalty that if they do not police their own members that the state can revoke the franchise/monopoly on that certification.

jessaustin 8y ago

GP didn't say that law is not a profession, but rather that computer programming is not a profession. This is obviously the case, since there are neither educational requirements nor state-approved certifications for this work. There are ethical expectations, only because all humans have ethical expectations. IANAL but one could certainly imagine 1A challenges to any attempt to enlist the state in the enforcement of a cartel like that of the lawyers or the physicians. In that sense it's no more likely that programming would ever become a profession than e.g. that writing would become a profession.

martythemaniak 8y ago

Well, "practicing medicine without a license" is a crime. I mean, you can call yourself a "healer" or something and claim to help people in some general, non-specific way, but you can't prescribe meds, cut people up, etc etc. So if you're a doctor you're given exclusive right to perform the economic activity of doctoring. In return you have a steep set of obligations, which include being truthful, ethical, not refusing service, etc. What you said is a part of these "obligations", which definitely put you at an economic disadvantage, but that's ok, because you have exclusive rights to that activity. A doctor's obligations do impose costs on them, but not compared to other doctors. The critical bit I'm trying get at is enforceability. If a doctor acts unethically, they can be challenged in front of their board by a patient and if they lose their license they can never practice medicine again. Having your livelihood at stake is a great incentive to act properly. A software engineer such as myself, OTOH, has no little incentive beyond my own personal ethics. In many cases, being ethical will place you at an economic disadvantage compared to other software engineers. Actually, the whole notion of "ethics" is hand-wavy and ill-defined, because there's no professional organization. Anyway, we can wish for good things and that'll party work and it's better than being cynical, but it'll only get you so far.