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Software engineers don't understand they're not professionals. I mean, they describe and think of themselves as such, but they are not legally such. Being a "p

Software engineers don't understand they're not professionals. I mean, they describe and think of themselves as such, but they are not legally such. Being a "professional" legally means that you're given exclusive rights to perform some economic activity and in return for this (usually) lucrative right, you have a great number of obligations - being responsible for your work (ie, facing the possibility of never being able to perform said economic activity legally again), an enforceable code of ethics, an dispute / resolution process etc, steep fees, continuing education, an accreditation exam, etc. Software engineers by and large do not want the obligations and restrictions of being a real profession, so no, they don't have any special ethics or rules to report or do anything in these cases beyond what a designer or secretary would do.

cjhanks 8y ago
https://www.ieee.org/membership/qualifications.html https://www.ieee.org/membership/qualifications.html Search for, "Member grade". The only path for a large portion of all people being called "software engineers" would not even be considered for 6 years. Those 6 years would probably be the most formative in educating them of their ethics and responsibilities. A service I am not sure IEEE really prioritizes anyways.
- kevin_thibedeau 8y ago
  IEEE can do whatever it wants. They don't certify anyone as a professional engineer. That is NSPE's job in the US.
  - cjhanks 8y ago
    Yeah, I am apparently not qualified to receive anything based on experience. https://www.nspe.org/membership/types-membership https://www.nspe.org/membership/types-membership Or if I want to pay them to get a certification no one cares about, I can. https://www.nspe.org/resources/education/exam-review-and-preparation https://www.nspe.org/resources/education/exam-review-and-pre... The system in that regard is broken.
na85 8y ago
"Engineer" as a title carries significant connotations of professionalism and integrity. If computer programmers or other developers want to refer to themselves as engineers, then it behooves them to also step up their game in the ethical field. Too often people want the "engineer" title because of its social cachet but don't strive to leave their mediocrity behind.
- briandear 8y ago
  Are you implying that most software engineers aren’t ethical? That isn’t true in my experience.
philipov 8y ago
Legally, being a professional only means you're exempt from the requirement for overtime pay.
- geodel 8y ago
  I think this is really critical part. In my country a lot of (private) banks promoted the title of clerks to 'officers'. Not the title employees asked, but being officers they are not entitled to overtime.
- gwbas1c 8y ago
  Someone earlier in this thread is confusing "professional" and "engineer".
geetfun 8y ago
Agreed. There’s definitely a real technical meaning in the word professional. Although the idea of being a “profession” sounds good, it’s riddled with regulation and ways that make the job less likeable for the practitioners. I left one before becoming a software developer. Nonetheless, being an ethical human being is just a good idea.
tabtab 8y ago
The word "professional" is overloaded. Perhaps a better term is "government certified professional". Medical doctors and (physical) engineers must meet a prescribed set of minimum standards and take an oath. Attempts to form a set of software standards to be used in a similar way has proven elusive. Software is too malleable, and languages and "state of the art" architectures come and go like clothing styles (often without merit in my opinion). Physics and the human body don't change very often. Software approaches do.
- jacquesm 8y ago
  I prefer accredited or registered.
mark212 8y ago
I've never heard of this legal definition of "professional" that you put forward. Where is this in state or federal law? In law school, we were taught that a professional has obligations that go beyond his or her own self interest. Unlike a real estate developer or a widget manufacturer, an attorney has an obligation to do what's right for the client even if that causes the attorney to lose money or imposes a competitive advantage. Attorneys, for example, can't engage in the kinds of advertising speech that would be entirely lawful if done by a car dealership or furniture store. This traditional definition is hundreds of years older than the bar exam or ABA code of ethics, and older than formal graduate law school (a 20th Century American invention). All of that came later, after lawyers understood themselves differently. I would encourage people who write code -- software engineers, developers, coders, hackers, however one chooses to describe this work -- to think of themselves as professionals with obligations that go beyond their own self interest.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- jfim 8y ago
  > I've never heard of this legal definition of "professional" that you put forward. Where is this in state or federal law? Professional, as in professional engineer. Think civil engineers, for example, who need to be registered with the board of engineers in order to provide engineering services (eg. approving plans for construction, supervising construction). Other countries also have specific legal statutes that regulate the title of engineer, such as Canada.
- madengr 8y ago
  “Attorneys, for example, can't engage in the kinds of advertising speech that would be entirely lawful if done by a car dealership or furniture store.” Why does Saul Goodman come to mind.
- fma 8y ago
  I would imagine OP is referring to "Professional Engineer". https://www.nspe.org/resources/licensure/what-pe https://www.nspe.org/resources/licensure/what-pe Every single design, bridge, etc is certified by a Professional Engineer. Your ass is on the line. I don't mean just being fired from your job - but jail time. Per the website: "A century ago, anyone could work as an engineer without proof of competency. In order to protect the public health, safety, and welfare, the first engineering licensure law was enacted in 1907 in Wyoming. Now every state regulates the practice of engineering to ensure public safety by granting only Professional Engineers (PEs) the authority to sign and seal engineering plans and offer their services to the public. " I suspect, and hope, software used critically have the same. Yes it's more bureaucracy and overhead...but being in software, I know any joe schmoe can walk on and develop code without oversight. I'm not saying if you're making the next twitter, that you need a PE. Or that every developer needs to have a PE license - but like other industries there is one PE per X amount of non-PE engineers. Due to the Threac-25 incident (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Therac-25 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Therac-25) there are standards for medical software (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEC_62304 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEC_62304). I'm not in medical so I don't know how widely adopted, or how strict it is adhered to. But it might be IEC 62304 needs to be branched out.
InitialLastName 8y ago
They're professional. They're not engineers, in the (legally) strict sense of the word. I think that's the distinction you meant to make.

cjhanks 8y ago

https://www.ieee.org/membership/qualifications.html https://www.ieee.org/membership/qualifications.html Search for, "Member grade". The only path for a large portion of all people being called "software engineers" would not even be considered for 6 years. Those 6 years would probably be the most formative in educating them of their ethics and responsibilities. A service I am not sure IEEE really prioritizes anyways.

kevin_thibedeau 8y ago
IEEE can do whatever it wants. They don't certify anyone as a professional engineer. That is NSPE's job in the US.
- cjhanks 8y ago
  Yeah, I am apparently not qualified to receive anything based on experience. https://www.nspe.org/membership/types-membership https://www.nspe.org/membership/types-membership Or if I want to pay them to get a certification no one cares about, I can. https://www.nspe.org/resources/education/exam-review-and-preparation https://www.nspe.org/resources/education/exam-review-and-pre... The system in that regard is broken.

na85 8y ago

"Engineer" as a title carries significant connotations of professionalism and integrity. If computer programmers or other developers want to refer to themselves as engineers, then it behooves them to also step up their game in the ethical field. Too often people want the "engineer" title because of its social cachet but don't strive to leave their mediocrity behind.

briandear 8y ago
Are you implying that most software engineers aren’t ethical? That isn’t true in my experience.

philipov 8y ago

Legally, being a professional only means you're exempt from the requirement for overtime pay.

geodel 8y ago
I think this is really critical part. In my country a lot of (private) banks promoted the title of clerks to 'officers'. Not the title employees asked, but being officers they are not entitled to overtime.
gwbas1c 8y ago
Someone earlier in this thread is confusing "professional" and "engineer".

geetfun 8y ago

Agreed. There’s definitely a real technical meaning in the word professional. Although the idea of being a “profession” sounds good, it’s riddled with regulation and ways that make the job less likeable for the practitioners. I left one before becoming a software developer. Nonetheless, being an ethical human being is just a good idea.

tabtab 8y ago

The word "professional" is overloaded. Perhaps a better term is "government certified professional". Medical doctors and (physical) engineers must meet a prescribed set of minimum standards and take an oath. Attempts to form a set of software standards to be used in a similar way has proven elusive. Software is too malleable, and languages and "state of the art" architectures come and go like clothing styles (often without merit in my opinion). Physics and the human body don't change very often. Software approaches do.

jacquesm 8y ago
I prefer accredited or registered.

mark212 8y ago

I've never heard of this legal definition of "professional" that you put forward. Where is this in state or federal law? In law school, we were taught that a professional has obligations that go beyond his or her own self interest. Unlike a real estate developer or a widget manufacturer, an attorney has an obligation to do what's right for the client even if that causes the attorney to lose money or imposes a competitive advantage. Attorneys, for example, can't engage in the kinds of advertising speech that would be entirely lawful if done by a car dealership or furniture store. This traditional definition is hundreds of years older than the bar exam or ABA code of ethics, and older than formal graduate law school (a 20th Century American invention). All of that came later, after lawyers understood themselves differently. I would encourage people who write code -- software engineers, developers, coders, hackers, however one chooses to describe this work -- to think of themselves as professionals with obligations that go beyond their own self interest.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
jfim 8y ago
> I've never heard of this legal definition of "professional" that you put forward. Where is this in state or federal law? Professional, as in professional engineer. Think civil engineers, for example, who need to be registered with the board of engineers in order to provide engineering services (eg. approving plans for construction, supervising construction). Other countries also have specific legal statutes that regulate the title of engineer, such as Canada.
madengr 8y ago
“Attorneys, for example, can't engage in the kinds of advertising speech that would be entirely lawful if done by a car dealership or furniture store.” Why does Saul Goodman come to mind.
fma 8y ago
I would imagine OP is referring to "Professional Engineer". https://www.nspe.org/resources/licensure/what-pe https://www.nspe.org/resources/licensure/what-pe Every single design, bridge, etc is certified by a Professional Engineer. Your ass is on the line. I don't mean just being fired from your job - but jail time. Per the website: "A century ago, anyone could work as an engineer without proof of competency. In order to protect the public health, safety, and welfare, the first engineering licensure law was enacted in 1907 in Wyoming. Now every state regulates the practice of engineering to ensure public safety by granting only Professional Engineers (PEs) the authority to sign and seal engineering plans and offer their services to the public. " I suspect, and hope, software used critically have the same. Yes it's more bureaucracy and overhead...but being in software, I know any joe schmoe can walk on and develop code without oversight. I'm not saying if you're making the next twitter, that you need a PE. Or that every developer needs to have a PE license - but like other industries there is one PE per X amount of non-PE engineers. Due to the Threac-25 incident (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Therac-25 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Therac-25) there are standards for medical software (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEC_62304 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEC_62304). I'm not in medical so I don't know how widely adopted, or how strict it is adhered to. But it might be IEC 62304 needs to be branched out.

InitialLastName 8y ago

They're professional. They're not engineers, in the (legally) strict sense of the word. I think that's the distinction you meant to make.