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Here's the interesting learning for me: While Kubernetes was most popular overall, the smallest companies (1-5 employees) use Docker Swarm more often (41 perce

Here's the interesting learning for me: While Kubernetes was most popular overall, the smallest companies (1-5 employees) use Docker Swarm more often (41 percent use Swarm vs. 31 percent that use Kubernetes). Did not know Swarm was this popular. Even overall Swarm is 35% to K8s 42% However, there is a huge proliferation of hosted K8s services - AWS, GCP, Azure, Digitalocean, tons of others. Nobody seems to be making a hosted Docker Swarm solution though. I wonder why - is it because the market doesnt exist because of the simplicity of Swarm itself ? Would be interesting to find out.

mromanuk 8y ago
Sadly Docker is replacing Docker Swarm by Kubernetes
- sandGorgon 8y ago
  i think they are being very opaque about their plans and this is hurting their credibility. They built the ability the launch k8s clusters through the docker tool. There are almost no tweets or posts about Swarm instead, their blog is full of kubernetes posts (https://blog.docker.com/ https://blog.docker.com/). Even their coolhacks section is about "kubeflow". Top rated session at Dockercon was kubernetes. i really hope they open up more and talk about their future plans and engage with the community.
  - BretFisher 8y ago
    Um, I was a top rated session that was repeated on Friday and was 100% Swarm, and had a full house https://twitter.com/BretFisher/status/1007099831783862272 https://twitter.com/BretFisher/status/1007099831783862272
    - sandGorgon 8y ago
      Bret - this is not me that's making the claims. Take a look here - https://blog.docker.com/2018/06/top-5-rated-sessions-dockercon2018/ https://blog.docker.com/2018/06/top-5-rated-sessions-dockerc... this is what is scaring us. We love Swarm and really respect all the dev efforts... but the corporate K8s bias in unmistakable. These are some of the kubernetes posts over the last 2 days from Docker's twitter account: https://twitter.com/Docker/status/1016340701800431618 https://twitter.com/Docker/status/1016340701800431618 https://twitter.com/Docker/status/1015620961712967681 https://twitter.com/Docker/status/1015620961712967681 https://twitter.com/Docker/status/1015535938678738950 https://twitter.com/Docker/status/1015535938678738950 https://twitter.com/Docker/status/1015475755428597760 https://twitter.com/Docker/status/1015475755428597760 Number of Swarm posts in the same time ? Zero. In fact, I would be hard pressed to find a public tweet about Swarm in a long time. This was the first Docker event in Lahore - https://events.docker.com/events/details/docker-lahore-presents-microservice-architecture-using-docker-and-kubernetes#/ https://events.docker.com/events/details/docker-lahore-prese... Its Kubernetes everywhere.
- abawany 8y ago
  According to [1], this is not true - it was intended to be an additive option. [1] https://www.bretfisher.com/is-swarm-dead-answered-by-a-docker-captain/ https://www.bretfisher.com/is-swarm-dead-answered-by-a-docke... from https://forums.docker.com/t/is-there-a-roadmap-for-docker-swarm/52581/9 https://forums.docker.com/t/is-there-a-roadmap-for-docker-sw...
  - BretFisher 8y ago
    Yep I wrote this, and it needs an update just months later. Lots happening. Even today a big PR was pulled in to improve the scalability of Swarm https://github.com/moby/moby/pull/37372 https://github.com/moby/moby/pull/37372 More updates here https://github.com/docker/swarmkit/issues/2665#issuecomment-399100372 https://github.com/docker/swarmkit/issues/2665#issuecomment-...
    - sandGorgon 8y ago
      hi, what do you think about the approaches of CiliumProject ? (https://opensource.googleblog.com/2016/11/cilium-networking-and-security.html https://opensource.googleblog.com/2016/11/cilium-networking-...). They do have a Docker plugin (but does not work seamlessly with Swarm), but they claim to use BPF for superior performance https://cilium.io/blog/2018/04/17/why-is-the-kernel-community-replacing-iptables/ https://cilium.io/blog/2018/04/17/why-is-the-kernel-communit... I think the Kubernetes and Swarm devs have generally leveraged IPVS as the next step from iptables. Any thoughts on going straight to BPF ?
weberc2 8y ago
Swarm is dead simple to get up and running; it's baked into Docker. Maybe k8s is easy too, but I've always run into issues and the value proposition for pushing past them was never clear to me. There's no doubt in my mind that there are very good reasons to use k8s, I just haven't found them (nor looked especially hard).
- digi_owl 8y ago
  And 1-5 employees sounds like the kind of business that would just as well stack a few gray boxes in a room and call it a day.
sho 8y ago
I can't help but wonder if this is a reflection of Digital Ocean's target market, and its late adoption of block storage and other functionality. Kubernetes is a pretty "serious" tool, and you'd expect "serious" teams to have a preference for bigger, more-established players like AWS/GCE. Digital Ocean having been moving up the chain but at least in my mind they're still associated with the "hobby site" mindset. Certainly I run my hobby sites there! I wonder if a similar survey from the bigger players would have different results.

mromanuk 8y ago

Sadly Docker is replacing Docker Swarm by Kubernetes

sandGorgon 8y ago
i think they are being very opaque about their plans and this is hurting their credibility. They built the ability the launch k8s clusters through the docker tool. There are almost no tweets or posts about Swarm instead, their blog is full of kubernetes posts (https://blog.docker.com/ https://blog.docker.com/). Even their coolhacks section is about "kubeflow". Top rated session at Dockercon was kubernetes. i really hope they open up more and talk about their future plans and engage with the community.
- BretFisher 8y ago
  Um, I was a top rated session that was repeated on Friday and was 100% Swarm, and had a full house https://twitter.com/BretFisher/status/1007099831783862272 https://twitter.com/BretFisher/status/1007099831783862272
  - sandGorgon 8y ago
    Bret - this is not me that's making the claims. Take a look here - https://blog.docker.com/2018/06/top-5-rated-sessions-dockercon2018/ https://blog.docker.com/2018/06/top-5-rated-sessions-dockerc... this is what is scaring us. We love Swarm and really respect all the dev efforts... but the corporate K8s bias in unmistakable. These are some of the kubernetes posts over the last 2 days from Docker's twitter account: https://twitter.com/Docker/status/1016340701800431618 https://twitter.com/Docker/status/1016340701800431618 https://twitter.com/Docker/status/1015620961712967681 https://twitter.com/Docker/status/1015620961712967681 https://twitter.com/Docker/status/1015535938678738950 https://twitter.com/Docker/status/1015535938678738950 https://twitter.com/Docker/status/1015475755428597760 https://twitter.com/Docker/status/1015475755428597760 Number of Swarm posts in the same time ? Zero. In fact, I would be hard pressed to find a public tweet about Swarm in a long time. This was the first Docker event in Lahore - https://events.docker.com/events/details/docker-lahore-presents-microservice-architecture-using-docker-and-kubernetes#/ https://events.docker.com/events/details/docker-lahore-prese... Its Kubernetes everywhere.
abawany 8y ago
According to [1], this is not true - it was intended to be an additive option. [1] https://www.bretfisher.com/is-swarm-dead-answered-by-a-docker-captain/ https://www.bretfisher.com/is-swarm-dead-answered-by-a-docke... from https://forums.docker.com/t/is-there-a-roadmap-for-docker-swarm/52581/9 https://forums.docker.com/t/is-there-a-roadmap-for-docker-sw...
- BretFisher 8y ago
  Yep I wrote this, and it needs an update just months later. Lots happening. Even today a big PR was pulled in to improve the scalability of Swarm https://github.com/moby/moby/pull/37372 https://github.com/moby/moby/pull/37372 More updates here https://github.com/docker/swarmkit/issues/2665#issuecomment-399100372 https://github.com/docker/swarmkit/issues/2665#issuecomment-...
  - sandGorgon 8y ago
    hi, what do you think about the approaches of CiliumProject ? (https://opensource.googleblog.com/2016/11/cilium-networking-and-security.html https://opensource.googleblog.com/2016/11/cilium-networking-...). They do have a Docker plugin (but does not work seamlessly with Swarm), but they claim to use BPF for superior performance https://cilium.io/blog/2018/04/17/why-is-the-kernel-community-replacing-iptables/ https://cilium.io/blog/2018/04/17/why-is-the-kernel-communit... I think the Kubernetes and Swarm devs have generally leveraged IPVS as the next step from iptables. Any thoughts on going straight to BPF ?

weberc2 8y ago

Swarm is dead simple to get up and running; it's baked into Docker. Maybe k8s is easy too, but I've always run into issues and the value proposition for pushing past them was never clear to me. There's no doubt in my mind that there are very good reasons to use k8s, I just haven't found them (nor looked especially hard).

digi_owl 8y ago
And 1-5 employees sounds like the kind of business that would just as well stack a few gray boxes in a room and call it a day.

sho 8y ago

I can't help but wonder if this is a reflection of Digital Ocean's target market, and its late adoption of block storage and other functionality. Kubernetes is a pretty "serious" tool, and you'd expect "serious" teams to have a preference for bigger, more-established players like AWS/GCE. Digital Ocean having been moving up the chain but at least in my mind they're still associated with the "hobby site" mindset. Certainly I run my hobby sites there! I wonder if a similar survey from the bigger players would have different results.